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Does God exist?
Arguments for and against God's existence. I'd like the negative position to take on an equal burden of proof and provide arguments against God's existence, e.g. the problem of suffering, divine hiddenness, etc.
An Intelligent Designer seems incredibly possible since our universe is so fine tuned and the laws of thermodynamics can be applied in a sense that supports the existence of a much larger eternal being.
Just to confirm, you are arguing that because the universe is so great, it must have been created?
In that case, could you please explain the pain and suffering and sadness that humans go through every day? The struggle for life and wellness and recreation that every single living organism must go through their entire life? The simple fact that life needs certain things to survive, the imperfect nature of that fact, that God could create life that does not need the universe to be as it is to survive?
Life has adapted to its surroundings, giving the impression that our surroundings are perfect for life. Do you really think that things could not be better? That things are truly perfect? That our existence is nothing more than a minuscule probability, caused to be likely due to the simple immeasurable vastness and magnitude of space and existence?
There are many arguments which support an intelligent designer. But there are many more which do not. You should not ignore either side.
God didn't make the world so it can be perfect- or else we would all be robots. We all have our ups and downs for a reason. If bad things didn't happen to us, then we couldn't fully appreciate the bad things in life. Then we would just be living a world of boring monotony. What kind of life would that be living? That's not a life! The world is colorful and that's what makes us all so fun to be around. If God made life perfect, then what would be the point of life?
Nathaniel Hawthorne had a Puritan upbringing but unconverted because he did not like some aspects that his ex-religion had developed into. However, you can see themes of the effects of reaching enlightenment or perfection in several of his works. Basically what his message is saying is that once we achieve this level of perfection, there is no need for us to be living anymore. In this sense, God has put thought into carefully making such an array of beings- the vast amount of things and stuff he has created.
Your idea of an imperfect world is only about perspective. You and I think it is imperfect, but a child new to the world might say it is perfect. Different perspectives doesn't mean that there is a point in life, or meaning, or a purpose. It's just life. There is no point, it is all about what you want to do with the time you have.
So, God allowed the Holocaust to happen so that you could appreciate your kid being born or so that your daughter can appreciate a rainbow? a) that's just disgusting b) YOU DONT KNOW WHATS IN HIS HEAD iF HE DID EXIST
Where is the humility? Where is the "I don't know what he was thinking there". Oh no. Everyone has an answer. Everyone has insight into the "greatest mind that will ever be".
Think about this.. Our closest DNA relative is a large primate, the chimp. We are about 1-5% difference (depends on who you ask but just pick a number) from these guys. No monkey is going to compose a symphony or invent calculus. A monkey could never have any real or valuable insight into us. Seriously. Now imagine a God (who I'm sure you'd be happy to describe for us) who is beyond measure smarter than us. NOW try to picture your insight. Also, imagine you giving a damn about an insect crawling out of the ground. Now imagine God giving a damn about us if he did exist. But of course, we're here for the ant. And God is here for us?
I'll explain the sadness and suffering: sin. Yes, it is that simple. Sin. God created a perfect world where men and women (at the time just Adam and Eve) could live with God in paradise. However, Adam and Eve disobeyed his only command and sin entered the world. Sin caused pain, suffering, sickness and tears. The world WOULD be perfect if it wasn't for the sin of us humans.
When God made us, he gave us free will. This free will can be used to make good or bad choices. By removing sin completely, God is removing our free will to do as we chose. So to answer your question, yes, God does have the power to remove sin from the world, but that doesn't mean He is going to. God commands us to make the right choice, but that doesn't mean that we will. Sin plagues our world but there is a way to conquer it. God sent His Son to die on the cross for us to save us from our sin.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
As long as you believe from your heart that God is who He says He is, and that He died on the cross for you, me, and everyone else on this earth, then you will be saved from your sin. You will also live in heaven for eternity in with God, as the verse states: "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
Except there is no such thing as God, nobody created us because we evolved, and free will is an illusion born of the completely stupid idea that we are lucky enough to live in the only moment which can be changed out of the last 14.5 billion years. Apart from those small problems your theory is fine.
The thing is that on a universal scale these things are considered to be miniscule. Things happen to planets that we are glad dont happen to us. I know earth life isnt perfect but if it was what would it even look like?
I picture heaven on earth, and each person has there own mental picture of this. If eve wouldn't have ate the forbidden fruit and got Adam to eat it as we'll, we would be in a life like paradise. Were we new nothing of sin. We would all be naked and not aware that we should be considered wrong. We would live with the wild life, eating fruits and veggies from the earth. We would not eat meat at all. As god created life and in all things we would respect life of all living things. Fish would be the only living thing we would eat. We wouldn't have computers and even power. Life as we know it wouldn't be, and sin would not exist either. But we can't go back and stop eve, so we have to wait until the time comes for this heaven on earth to emerge. Most people fear this time, and some have predicted the day and time in which this would happen, and the time has come and gone a 100 times over. Because the bible says 1000 years, we'll we don't know gods time scale. Nor do I believe that there is a human out there that has discovered the truth the bible holds. You can translate Hebrew to other languages but each time you do you lose some of the real meaning of the basic truth it holds.
If life isn't perfect, then what's to say it wasn't just a random chance that we are how we are, that things just happen to work as they do?
Let us assume that creation has occurred (which has happened with or without a God existing). If there was a God guiding this creation, then it would be fair to say that a more perfect world than our own should be expected to occur. If it was nothing but chance, then you would expect some parts of the universe to be habitable and suitable for life, and the vast majority not to be (as the number of factors required for possible life are great). That is what we have seen. We would expect a combination of both positives and negatives within that life. That is what we have seen. We would expect certain rules, or laws, to arise, which stay constant throughout the universe. This is what we have seen.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. - Richard Dawkins
You quoted Richard Dawkins but he believes in intelligent design. How do you know what perfection is? Describe a universe that is perfect. This intelligent designer does not have to follow what we think is perfect. Nobody can literally discribe a perfect universe.
Richard Dawkins has been one of the most prominent atheist & anti-religious voices of the last twenty years. He does not believe in intelligent design - the quote I used should quite simply show that.
How do you know what perfection is?
I do not need to. I simply need to show that the current universe is imperfect (there is a single thing wrong with it) and I have shown that we do not live in a perfect universe. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
A video was posted a while ago when he was interviewed about his book. Even he knew that you cannot proven an intelligent designer exists or not.I have read his book. If you dont know perfection how do you know imperfection? If you have shown that you dont know perfection how can you claim the universe is imperfect?
Even he knew that you cannot proven an intelligent designer exists or not.
That is a very different statement. You originally claimed that he believed in intelligent design (creation by a God). Now you say that he is saying that you cannot disprove the existent of a God (intelligent designer). Which do you claim he believes?
And if you managed to read his entire book, and not realise that he was an atheist, I honestly worry for you.
If you dont know perfection how do you know imperfection?
Because I see pain and suffering in the world. I see people with so much pain and suffering that they would rather stop their existence. But I also see that things can be so much better. In a perfect world, everything would be better, but we do not live in a perfect world. That's quite indisputable really.
God Ben I have no clue what I am talking about. I am just trying to learn as much as I can. I lost my initail point. I am arguing for the opposite side. Quite hard. Arguing for intelligent design is hard. I have no idea how to perfectly argue for it.
Explain it to me and explain how each theory is 100% true. I wanna see some wormholes or something spectacular. I wanna see the theoretical things become true go ahead. Explain it. It is all theories.
I know earth life isnt perfect but if it was what would it even look like?
So your point is that all-mighty perfect creator of everything creating imperfect world just to be more fun?
Is your argument that tsunamis and earthquakes that kill thousands of people in one day are just for the fun. Oh well, if God made Earth perfect, what would it be like? :)
Well to give you a hint what would it look like: it would certainly be a place where people don't kill each other over a horse shit like religion beliefs!
Here you have a question, let see if you can answer: if God created universe and all the laws in the universe, than God have ultimately created good and evil as well. Tell me than why God created all the evil that exist in the world?
Why are you asking me about the Christian God? I am talking an intelligent designer. Not God. Also we may never know its purpose. Science has not even gotten to the first step of life and even when they do something must have came before that and something must have created the item. Darwinian methods of survival is what runs our planet. You cant ask me abkut evil if that has nothing to do with my entire argument.
You cant ask me abkut evil if that has nothing to do with my entire argument.
So you mean that evil is perfect since it is part of the fine tuning and made by intelligen designer? It means that I can peak out an eye out of your skull just for the fun of watching it and you will accept it because the world is fine tuned as it is and an intteligent creator created my sadistic tendency as well?
No I was not talking about "christian god" i was talking about your "fine tuning" and intelligent designer.
You still dont get the idea. The creator just made the universe and thats it. Evil is for humans. Death is for humans or any organism that understands it. You keep mentioning all of these human characteristics of the creator I speak of when all I said is that he spawned the universe and thats it. Never did I say he made humans. Never did I say he made thoughts or emotions or good or evil. Who cares how the creator acts the only thing I am arguing for is that one may exist regardless of his morals or what humans deem it as.
Only one who don't get the idea is you young lady.
I am not giving any characteristics to your creator! What you don't obviously understand is that all the good and evil that exists is ultimately created by your creator. Explicitely or implicitly. Even if he jsut sparkled the big ban and nothing else, so has he created universe like it is. I just asked if all of those things I mentioned are what you consider to be fine tuning in universe? It does not give any characteristics to your creator. So please meditate and answer the questioni, or realize you are not able, nor will ever be able to answer it.
Also that "fine tuning" was your argument that an intelligent creator must be behind. Why would "fine tuning" at all imply an intelligent creator. Why wouldn't universe exist without a creator such as god and still be fine tuned?
Tell us also who created your creator.
Now try to answer those questions, and not to talk about me having ideas or not having ideas as you have done since I addressed you from the first time.
How in the world do you logically create an eternal and ever existing being? You should know that is impossible. You don't. It exists on its own. Forever. That is the point :-). Why would that be impossible? Give me a LOGICAL reason.
According to your logic than God has to be created as well. What created God?
You accused me of thinking in human terms; but it is exactly what you are doing all the time. You assume that EVERYTHING has to be created. Sometimes you have get out of the box and think differently.
I read a book called 'The case for a creater', not to be one of the people who always asks people to read books. Many well respected Scientists are theists. The book is about this guy who was atheist and was hoping he was right. He looked at it from a non bias view and came to the conclusion that there was a designer. The book also shows how many atheist's "proofs" are very fake.
Week ago I saw on Youtube "Conversion video" of atheist "Czech Scientist" woman converting to Islam. She had no East European accent, spoken clear Londoners English. Same video I found titled "German business woman" converted to the Islam or "Norwegian Noble prize winner" converted to Islam, still same chick...
There are video where "atheists" being converted into random religions in 30 seconds...
Same shit has been done by communists. You always find and idiot who pays for that book or video...
The Miller's experiment, which tried to prove that life can happen by chance. First off, he made a combination of chemicals that don't even match what scientists believe earth was like when life began. His experiment made amino acids which he claimed as proof that life started by itself. It turn's out the chemical was about as lifeless as cynide. So even in his forged earth, life could not start itself.
After Miller's death in 2007, scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments. That is considerably more than what Miller originally reported, and more than the 20 that naturally occur in life.
Some people are atheists simply because they don't want to believe in God.
They don't want to be accountable to God.
It's a matter of convenient truth to remove God and religion. And its convenient, because the thought is prove it the Ill believe it. So its convenient, since the atheist doesnt think they need to prove God doesn't exist.
But it's without true evaluation. And its without the Atheist feeling the need to dispgrove God.
These "fake atheists" actully took on the resposibility to disprove God. And proved to themselves they were wrong!
Denial and deception go hand in hand. By avoiding a reasonable challenge to their thoughts they live in denial and deception. So please true atheists prove there is no God. That's what this debate is about. It's not about you dismissing the argument, it's about convincing others there is no God.
So take the challenge, and show me! I think it's out of blind ignorance, out of shutting your ears and eyes so you don't challenge an easy convenient truth. I think is omitting facts and its not founded in the degree of questioning that is complete in diligently convincing others or really even yourself that God doesn't exist.
Many dismiss God based on a "Santa" persona, He knows when we are naughty...
The atheist's denial of religion and of God has been formed by views they accept without investigation, concluded mostly by others who do not want a to answer their own life standards to a God they dont choose to know!
Their investigation consists of avoiding God, and avoiding any thoughts or opinions that may challenge their version of convenient truth.
They make their conclusions without giving it any thought let alone an attempt of an independent thorough investigation.
Atheists are so willing to accept that He doesn't exist, they argue without objectivity instead of challenging themselves to prove He doesn't exist. I think more creationist have at one time objectively looked at evolution through public school and universities than the other way around.
But very little if any effort is spent weighing the data that suggests He may actually really exist.
To many atheists it's a convenient truth, to be left unchallenged. They approach the idea of faith and sound reasonings for creation with a smug harshness against religion. Disproving He exists by holding unchallenged theories. And then not taking any responsibility to prove that He doesn't exist.Innocent till proven guilty, to do that all facts should be judged on truth and accuracy.
We creationists are on trial to prove that God does exist.
But even more shouldn't the atheist be on trial to prove He doesn't exist.
We can win an argument today, but defending on if there is a Creator or not, the atheist will stand alone in their investigation and face Him if He truely does exist. Shouldn't you at least prove He doesn't exist since so you can make that determination.
No understanding of spiritual things they don't believe could exist. They think how can God allow evil to exist, or allow pain, or judge sin.
So the atheists hasn't given much thought on why or how God exists, they focus on ignoring any details that my otherwise show that He does exist.
One can't be an atheist because they don't want to be accountable to something they don't believe in. That would, itself, require a belief in god, which precludes atheism.
Everyone knows there is a God. It is written on your conscience. And evident in nature. And is seen in others.
But consciences are easily dulled.
Have you ever investigated God, with a reasonable effort, as if you really and truely wanted to know?
If you adopted it without proving there isnt a God, then your not really an atheist. Your conclusions are not based on a belief saying "you don't believe God exists."
You are an atheist because it's convenient to be absent of God. And you choose not to find out.
To "believe" something it implies you investigated all the sides and evaluated both theories, and through your own reasonable effort you have concluded your position, and that IS what you believe!
You can't believe something is true or not true without truely believing the other is false. And you can't differentiate truth from false without investigating both theories in an objective way. That's NOT belief! Belief is CONVINCED. Convinced only comes through true investigation!
So you may be an atheist because you choose to be one, or because you want to be, but believing isn't a passive activity, its an activity that end in being convinced! Being convinced doesn't come by accepting another's view. Thats just following the beliefs of someone elses, and they typically didn't put out effort to be convinced either. So your assumption is based off anothers assumption, and all the way down the line!
This debate affords the opportunity to be formally convinced.
And even to convince us!
Believing is a conviction, conviction is convinced, convinced is firm and no beliefs come without a truely objective investigation.
And that effort determines what you believe!
Otherwise it's an assumption not a belief!
So you assume there is no God.
You choose to think there is no God.
You choose to ignore investigating God.
And you will whole heartedly argue it, but I wouldn't call it belief or being convinced. Because you are perched saying I don't need to know or care to know and it God's job and our job to convince you beyond your basic assumption.
My point is believing something and holding a view are different terms.
If you believe something you are convinced
If you hold a view it's an opinion.
So if someone says I don't believe in God, they are saying after really applying thought I believe this and believing is I am certain by way of being convinced.
A view can be well thought out but it's not being convinced in the sense of believing. A view is an opinion based on the info used to weigh the view point. One doesn't have to be convinced through objective investigation to hold a view, or they can have thoroughly investigated to hold a view.
But beliefs are not views. They are conclusions that are convinced. By understanding the depth of both beliefs.
So belief is a much stronger view, based on real thought resulting in real conviction.
So when someone says they believe there is no God, sometimes it's a true belief. But most times its an assumption view.
So if someone says I don't believe in God, they are saying after really applying thought I believe this and believing is I am certain by way of being convinced.
That's referred to as Positive Atheism. Negative Atheism is saying that after seeing the arguments in favor of theism, they simply aren't convinced. Atheism itself is not a positive claim, so Positive Atheism is by no means the default form.
So when someone says they believe there is no God, sometimes it's a true belief. But most times its an assumption view.
You truly have zero basis for making that claim. You have already demonstrated that you know incredibly little about the mindset of atheists, so please, stick to discussing your own beliefs and views, rather than attempting to tell others how they think.
The earth was floating in the Universe not spinning.
Floating as any rock in space.
A dark planet full of water.
So then on day 1 God made the universe and the world of water.
The Spirit of God was roaming over surface of the world made of water.
Then God made light separated the world in 1/2 with darkness and light. Light He called good. Named light "day" and dark "night."
And that was day 1.
Even today the oceans have midnight zones and twilight zones, and its lighter closer to the surface of the water. So light may have coexisted with the water showing in the water on the 1st day.
And a morning and an evening.
There is no time period for day 1 it could have been millions of years or 1000 years or a 24 hour day as we know it, but I'm thinking not a 24 hour day.
God is not governed by time. And He didnt create time as we know it till day 4. And He created time to govern our days. And number our days.
So on day 1, my theory is, time as we know it didn't exist.
Each day says there was morning and evening, but time didn't exist so light and dark were divided in two, and firmament nor sky nor air nor atmosphere existed yet.
Day and night, light and dark, morning and evening all these terms didn't have a definitive time value.
DUET 11 : 21
so that your days are multiplied, and the days of your sons, on the ground which Jehovah hath sworn to your fathers to give to them, as the days of the heavens on the earth. Heavens days are eternal. Time does not govern God or Heaven.
The days weren't coordinate by the world spinning till after day 4. So the unformed tumbled as earth stood floating without rotation in space.
Day 2 God placed the core and earth in the middle of the world. Separating water from water. Water covered the firmanent.
I brought it up in reference to the person I was responding to. They said "many scientists agree with this", when in fact most scientists do not.
I agree with your statement that a majority can be wrong sometimes. I would like to use the world's religions as an example, many of which have conflicting beliefs, yet large followings. Most if not all of them are likely to be wrong.
Intelligent design has been debunked extensively though. The argument boils down to "the universe is so perfect, therefore god". This line of reasoning is absurd, for it eliminates all other possibilities.
The scientific community outright rejected the whole intelligent design idea!?
This is not accurate nor correct Mark. And you know this. You're assuming because a couple scientists claim one thing that it trumps the other. As far as I know it's about 50-50 right now.
The scientific community outright rejected the whole intelligent design idea!?
Yes, yes they did. There has been a court case or two in which intelligent design was trying to be taught in school and it went to a lawsuit, and both sides presented their evidence. They found that intelligent design is merely creationism in disguise. Further, there is no evidence that would support intelligent design, like there is with the big bang and the theory of evolution.
After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community.
So yes, what I said was accurate and correct. It is you who does not know this. The number of scientists who believe in intelligent design vs something else is not 50/50.
Scientific acceptance of Intelligent Design would require redefining science to allow supernatural explanations of observed phenomena, an approach its proponents describe as theistic realism or theistic science. It puts forth a number of arguments in support of the existence of a designer, the most prominent of which are irreducible complexity and specified complexity.[5] The scientific community rejects the extension of science to include supernatural explanations in favor of continued acceptance of methodological naturalism,[n 3][n 4][6][7] and has rejected both irreducible complexity and specified complexity for a wide range of conceptual and factual flaws.[8][9][10][11] Intelligent design is viewed as a pseudoscience by the scientific community, because it lacks empirical support, offers no tenable hypotheses, and aims to describe natural history in terms of scientifically untestable supernatural causes.
And you continue to pretend that you actually know what you're talking about.
Intelligent Design is not science, nor is it accepted in the scientific community. Nor does it have widespread support among scientists individually, certainly not 50%.
That statement is way to broad and is in itself a falicy. Even if what your saying is true (which I guess would only be if you get all of your information from Discovery Channel) scientists dont determine truth. A good first step would be to define what you mean by 'Scientific Community' since I can name several PhD scientists off the top of my head who have made great advances in recent science and who, not only reject atheism, but also evolution.
That statement is way to broad and is in itself a falicy.
How? I was responding to his comment, which said that many scientists agree with intelligent design. His statement was false.
Even if what your saying is true (which I guess would only be if you get all of your information from Discovery Channel) scientists dont determine truth.
Of course scientists do not determine truth. Our best method so far for discovering truth is through the scientific method. It's not through faith, or whatever other method. Lots of scientists have used this method, and have come to similar conclusions in regards to the big bang or evolution or other fields of science. More evidence is more pieces to the puzzle, and everyone has the same puzzle. It's not like religion or faith where its completely subjective.
I can name several PhD scientists off the top of my head who have made great advances in recent science and who, not only reject atheism, but also evolution.
What famous, well regarded scientists rejects evolution?
My information doesn't come from the TV. Perhaps you shouldn't get all your information from a 2000 year old book.
It's a fallacy because it is a blanket statement you haven't backed up with facts.
" Our best method so far for discovering truth is through the scientific method."
Another fallacy since the scientific method cannot varify the scientific method. Unless you are able to varify it, your worldview is reduced to absurdity.
"My information doesn't come from the TV. Perhaps you shouldn't get all your information from a 2000 year old book."
Unless I trusted in a 2000 year old book my worldview would be absurd like yours. Because I believe in God, I have a reason to believe the scientific method because I have a reason believe in knowledge. To know anything you have to either know everything or know someone who does. If you don't, something you don't know could contradict what you do know, therefore you can't know anything. I do know someone who knows everything and you don't, therefore I have a reason for truth and you don't. You can't even logically prove your own existence, I can because of the 2000 year old book.
"What famous, well regarded scientists rejects evolution?"
Another fallacy, I can list several times in history where the people who were right were not famous, well regarded scientists. Yet I will give you an example: John Sanford, inventor of the 'gene gun' the first device able to change the molecular structure of plant cells.
Another fallacy since the scientific method cannot varify the scientific method. Unless you are able to varify it, your worldview is reduced to absurdity.
This isn't the scientific method verifying the scientific method....
The scientific method is verified because it allows us to run experiments, these experiments let us make predictions, these predictions produce real things. They produce vehicles, space shuttles, air conditioners, cell phones, computers, etc. We use the scientific method because it works by produces things, this is how it is verified. If you want to reject this, then your worldview becomes absurdity.
Unless I trusted in a 2000 year old book my worldview would be absurd like yours. Because I believe in God, I have a reason to believe the scientific method because I have a reason believe in knowledge. To know anything you have to either know everything or know someone who does. If you don't, something you don't know could contradict what you do know, therefore you can't know anything. I do know someone who knows everything and you don't, therefore I have a reason for truth and you don't. You can't even logically prove your own existence, I can because of the 2000 year old book.
Have you been watching a lot of Eric Hovind? He uses an argument similar if not identical to yours.
Anyways, your premise is false. There are some things we can know for certain, without the two conditions you said. A priori statements are things we can know without having any experience.
Not counting things like that, we don't need 100% certainty to be able to go about our lives. We have a practical sense of certainty, in that our "assumptions of science" actually work as we intend them to.
My worldview is not absurd, but there are a few "i don't know's" in there. I'd rather have an "i don't know" than a fabricated and likely false explanation that makes me feel better. I can know things with a practical sense of certainty, or pretty much "99%" certainty.
All you're doing is pretending to know someone who claims to know everything in the universe. But I can do the same thing as you and say that Zeus is my god, and that he knows everything. Or is Zeus an invalid god and yours is the correct one?
Another fallacy, I can list several times in history where the people who were right were not famous, well regarded scientists. Yet I will give you an example: John Sanford, inventor of the 'gene gun' the first device able to change the molecular structure of plant cells.
Apparently he does reject evolution, but it says his position is rejected by most people in his field....
A good first step would be to define what you mean by 'Scientific Community'
An overwhelming majority of the scientific community accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of biological diversity.[1][2] Nearly every scientific society, representing hundreds of thousands of scientists, have issued statements rejecting intelligent design[2] and a petition supporting the teaching of evolutionary biology was endorsed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners.[3] Additionally, US courts have ruled in favor of teaching evolution in science classrooms, and against teaching creationism, in numerous cases such as Edwards v. Aguillard, Hendren v. Campbell, McLean v. Arkansas and Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.
Hahaha, This is basically what you said "I don't varify the scientific method with the scientific method, I just varify it with science" LOL. Eric got this argument the same place I got it from, logic. Logic is something you can't account for, therefore everything you said is discounted since you (are trying to) use logic.
"your premise is false"
You can't account for logic, therefore in your worldview my premise doesn't need to be correct in order to be true. Do you know everything? No. So something you don't know could contradict everything you think you know, therefore you don't know anything. I have a reason to believe in logic.
"But I can do the same thing as you and say that Zeus is my god, and that he knows everything. "
So your no longer an atheist, you are a Greek. If, however, your posing this in the hypothetical, you can't know anything as an atheist, so your statement merely proved my point since you tried to use logic again.
" but it says his position is rejected by most people in his field...."
So was Galileo's
Look dude, whatever you say in your next reply is going to have a knowledge claim in it and therefore prove my point. You can't even prove you exist without God (you proof would have 'I' in it and would therefore beg the question.) Your just constantly proving what Romans 1 say over and over.
you take the scientific community as a source of truth. This is an appeal to authority, who are abstract and undefined. It lends discrete if one believes them relevant to the truth of the proposed statement, but i do not believe that this abstract entity has any relevance to this argument. To be more clear, this scientific community has about as much possibility as god.
Many scientists may be theists but this does not mean the believe there is irrefutable and incontrovertible proof of a god or gods. Moreover, very few scientists actually specialize in areas that would give them any authority on the matter of deistic probability.
Many scientists agree that there is a diety? Please define the term many. How about a percentage? I'll hinder to your point if you can find a scientist that wasn't raised in a faith based household that "converted".
That you KNOWexists? That contradicts your religion. God is a faith based God. He does not make himself know because through faith he is pleased. You cannot 100% truly know and God set it up that way. If you say you "KNOW" he exists you are contradicting the point of the faith.
That is such a messed up view of faith. Faith is not "maybe or maybe not" faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. If my faith is substantial, it is for sure. I am not giving my life for anything that is anything but 100% true. If you read my other argument you'll see that everyone has faith in something, whether it's their mind or logic, those are things that have to be taken by faith and yet they make no sense without faith in God. Faith is not unique to Christianity, but faith in the living God I KNOW exists is.
if believe that things around you exist, then God exists. Who is the creator? And if you think that there is no creator of these things, then use all your power and create a single thing. ( I don't mean transform.)
Its called beyond a reasonable doubt. We try thousands of cases per day based on innocent or guilty beyond a " reasonable doubt"
I have evidence piled high that makes it proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If the Bible were on trial it would be guilty of being true beyond a reasonable doubt.
God wouldn't be a fair judicial judge if He hid the evidence and displayed unconfirmed testimony. Your testimony if from God would be confirmed by Him.
Just as He confirmed who Jesus was then. If He does not bear witness, then the testimony is false.
The Word Spirit and Father are a cord of three strands that cant be broken. A kingdom divided can't stand.
Its not the work of God to deceive, His light reveals.
He is judicial. In His courtroom He provides abundant evidence and testimony and witness. The truth is confirmed always! Witness confirming every fact.
I can that look at facts when discussing evolution, on which you have a credible degree of facts at the core of your foundation.
So then I ask in your facts of evolution can we find a Divine Intruder?
Whereas you dismiss facts of a Book based on unfactual and falsified information, and there isn't even a discussion to have beyond that because at the core foundation you accept false information, so when discussing your objection to the Divine Intruder in the study of History, your mythological falsified facts won' t allow a basic foundation of facts at minimum to build on.
So how credible is the facts you conclude against the Bible? a stance in opposition to the faith of others. Since your foundation of facts is piled up in inaccuracies and truely "myths" since they are based on untruths, isn't that what myths are?
So isn't it ironic to build a case on inaccuracies, then use inaccuracies to conclude a lack of credibilty, by which concluding what is myth?
The outcome of conclusion should at minimum be factual with accuracies to hold up at least it's foundation, especially if dismissing basic credibility of what faith is built on in the first place.
Skeptic scrutiny is not credible if you are blindly or conveniently accepting inaccuracies to dismiss accuracies, where by doing you dismiss faith by a foundation of inaccuracies.
Then let me tell you my experience of faith. Because I am an eyewitness of that. And its real, and I'm convinced.
My faith isn't based on a mental acknowledgement of a faith that I hope exists.
I have become convinced of faith by both reason and experience. And in understanding I see clearly, and
in my understanding I am convinced.
I would think it silly to deny your way in the world based on Hell or judgement, especially if you are NOT convinced of God, or if Hell or Heaven exists.
That's like saying Buy a wedding dress, rent the hall, and pay the caterer, even though you don't have a Bride, or Groom, or engagement, or even dating someone yet!
Jesus said count the cost! He actually wants us to be convinced of our decision to follow Him, and He wants us to go in to this relationship with Him, knowing we can pay the cost, knowing its worth it, and willing to pay the cost.
And no one does that unless their convinced. So Jesus says, I want you to be convinced, because your commitment to Me needs to be on solid ground! - wise man builds a house compared to the idiot that builds a house - both go through the storm, idiots house falls, the one who is solid is convinced and holds up through the storms.
The Rich Young Ruler WANTED to follow Jesus, He even agreed with His commandments! But Jesus says, cool you are almost there, one more thing .... the Rich Young Ruler wouldn't have worked out well, at least not making that commitment on that day, why?
Jesus didn't run after him and when the disciples were like Hey Jesus, this is bad for the saving business, no one will be saved if you keep that up! He taught them then, what is needed to make a child of Light, where your heart is, there is your treasure.
And He said people need to understand the cost, for some the cost may be someone, to others something, whatever you love He knows the heart ... Abraham loved Isaac, yet by his famous test, God said, do you love your Son more than Me?
And Abraham, you can imagine how distraught the scene was, and Abraham's grief leading up to that moment, God says pass! He counted the cost and was willing to pay every last penny he had serving God. Was he convinced? Or was his faith a guess?
So I never said this argument. I said count the cost, and be convinced. I showed you every reason to believe, and I added a very honest believable and relatable set of videos to satisfy your intellect. I showed you God's Word, confirming God's Word.
I showed you His character and sensibly showed you why darkness can't stand. And why the world's Woes have grown in the darkness of Satan's seed.
And I gave you my experience, which is wonderfully wise when I was a dumb ass 5 year old, 2nd grader, and and a merging rebel. And some other fabulous encounters that were realistic, without over spiritualizing every pee and poop I ever experienced.
I think people think faith is a guess. A lucky guess! We HOPE we are right, well that's not good enough!
That's actually not what faith is at all.
Faith is being CONVINCED of things not seen!
Without faith that is CONVINCED, it is impossible to please God!
Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. ...
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Romans 8: 37-39
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
"Matter cannpt be created or destroyed so something must have created it."
Wait, what? How can you assume something created it after just saying it cannot be created? And also, how do we know the universe even came from nothing? What if it didn't come from nothing? What if there is no such thing as nothing?
If it's perfectly reasonable for one to believe in an eternally existing complex deity, then I see no reason why another cannot believe in eternally existing simple natural forces.
Thats why I am saying what if an eternal being could create everything since it cannot create itself. Nobody is right or wrong apart of the little detail that your statement has no backing and it goes against knowledge that we have.
If the eternal being is an exception to the rule, why assume what is eternal is a being that created everything? Where does the description of a sentient being become a logical conclusion based off of the First Law of Thermodynamics?
What caused the forces? The forces are effects, every effect has a cause, that is natural law. There is somebody behind the law of nature, and that is God who created nature. God is the cause of natural forces. This is simple common sense.
To believe the natural forces are self existent is the religion of naturalism, in which you worship nature as the cause of your life.....while at the same time you hate nature for bringing you into existence only to suffer and die, a futile and meaningless reality you make for yourself by believing nature is God and needed no cause to exist. Only God exists without being caused.
God is the Creator! Every action taken by God was on purpose.
Honestly it doesn't matter if it was fairy dust and bang it existed. Or if God took His time on some days.
Isnt that up to Him.
I saw a few spiritual jewels in God's Word.
And I shared them. And somethings I've been seeing, I think are really awesome nuggets of revelation..
I shared it, if you don't see it, thats fine. Its my jewel today anyway!
You don't see me calling you names, calling you a heretic, or saying your not a Christian. Dude you are sinning! Stop your hurting yourself by the pride and bitterness.
childish logic based on simplified education for masses. I told you about Casimir's effect and the difference between classical mechanics and real world before, yet you keep posting same debunked bullshit over and over again.
During the Casimir's effect particles appears and disappears without any cause. That means that you do not need a wizard, there are obviously another ways...
Particles are like rabbits then? When the magician pulls it out of the hat, I guess this proves that rabbits are usually born from their mothers but sometimes they just appear in magician's hats out of no where.
...Or maybe not. Maybe the magician is doing something we don't understand ust like the particles in the casimir effect ;)
I'm sorry I don't understand. The point in doing what?
My point was that a rabbit that magically appears in the magicians could be said to appear out of no where, therefore it may seem like particles appear out of the no where but in reality there is some sort of cause. The same could debunk the theory you're talking about by saying there is a cause and we just don't know it yet.
Fair enough. I'm not a physicist so I can't really argue with you on it. It is just quite difficult to believe that we can be absolutely sure that matter comes into existence without any cause. It would seem to me impossible to prove that there is no cause. I would have thought that the opinion would have been that we just don't know the cause of why matter comes into existence. But again i really don't know.
In quantum physics it works this way: I can predict from observation that particle A will hit particle B if particle B spins. I can tell you how probable is it and when it will happen and how we may benefit from it. However I have no clue why it happens.
We have so called "interpretations" of why it happens but they aren't actual theories. It just helps you to "visualize" the background of it.
Casimirs effect happens in vacuum where is no matter/energy present at all and we observed particles coming out of there. It like you standing next to a room with only one exit and you know that there is no one in there but you see people constantly leaving that room and it happens because the room is empty.
Matter cannpt be created or destroyed so something must have created it. Thats it.
No its not. As you say matter cannot be created, so no God can create it. Matter (or energy) is what exists, always did and always will, without reason and cause. Just accept that and the universe will be better place.
Also the big bang may not of been the beginning, general relativity breaks down at small scales. The idea that time and space began at the big bang came from relativity, so because relativity breaks down at small scales, it cannot be trusted at the beginning.
Also there are models in which the universe is eternal, some of these are cyclic. At this moment in time we do not know if the universe had an ultimate beginning.
Well tell me. If our universe came from the big bang and an infinite line of big bangs is impossible and our universe has an end then how is it eternal?
How is an infinite number of big bangs impossible?
There are cyclic models, in which the universe is infinite.
There are also models in which we are just one universe, in an eternal multiverse.
I am not saying any of these models are correct, all I am saying is there is that, there are models in which the universe is eternal, and we do not know whether it began or not.
There may be in a couple, but I haven't heard these problems. I don't think they would lose energy, just because energy is conserved. I don't know what you mean by overheat.
Yes they are all theoretical. All I am doing is there are models in which the universe is eternal. All our models before Planck time are theoretical, they are all hypothesis, and at this moment cannot be tested. So people shouldn't take them as facts, because they are not.
Isn't your claim that inteeligent creator created universe.
infinite big bangs cant occur.
Why wouldn't they?
On the contrary I think they can.
About your other poop about universum would loose energy that you pooped longer in the thread; how can universe loos energy when energy cannot be created of destroyed; it can only change the form. You who are pooping about thermodynamics all over the place here should know that. Lost of energy you are referring from thermodynamics, does not mean lost of energy from universe. The energy you loose in heating or making work is still present in universe in some other form (for example it heated up surface during the friction just as illustration).
If there is nothing outside the universe, where would energy be loosed? Energy just changes the form; it is not lost as "destroyed for ever". It is conserved, just as you wrote yourself (but obviously not reallly conscious what it means). Also it means that energy, (and matter since those are just two different forms of same thing) is eternal.
Scientists have already agreed that the universe would lose energy for each big bang. If I am pooping up stuff then tell me. What happened before the big bang and please only answer this question. I would like to see your response. Because even the biggest athiest I know cant guve me an answer.
Scientists have already agreed that the universe would lose energy for each big bang. If I am pooping up stuff then tell me. Yes you are pooping stuff because you said your self that energy can not be created or destroyed. Outside of the universum and big bang is nothing, so where should energy go away? Energi IS the universum at the very moment of the big bang (if that theory is correct at all).
What scientists? Link to your theory.
What happened before the big bang
Another universe. By the way there are other theorys than ever oscilating unverse.
Because even the biggest athiest I know cant guve me an answer. Of course I can give you answer young lady. But before I do that I have to correct you and point out that there are no "biggest" or "smallest" atheist. There are only primates who believe in god, and intelligent humans who know better than to believe in fairy tails.
About your question: nobody knows. At the moment. That is the answer. You might have red that in the other side of the debate since I have already wrote it. But you seem to lack the curiosity to read and inform yourself.
Science does not have answers for everything but it does not mean it will not have answer in the future. Just because there is a hole in the knowledge does not mean we have to fill it with superstition and morronic assumptions like a cavemen. Difference between humans today (well some of them) and cave people from 30 000 years ago, or even antique people from barely 2000 years ago is that we have much more knowedge about the nature around us, the universe and ourselves. We have it because we have applied rational and logic thinking about the unknowns which led to more knowledge, not because we blindly believed in fairy tails. If it wasn't so we would still be burning people who believe that Earth is rotating around the Sun! All you morronic "intelligent design" scientologists and similar idiots are achieving is putting your minds back in 13th century where people were burned because they dared to think logically and use science to explain the world instead of fairy tales told by analfabets from the past.
According to your claims, energi/matter can not be created from nothing. So what did God created enerig/matter from? Out of nothing? Have you thought about it? Who crated God? If God exists somewhat/something had to create God, isn't it so? Why is it acceptable to you that universe can not exist eternally on its own, but God can?
E = mc^2 means that matter and energy are interchangeable. Also many Physicists think that the total energy of the universe is 0, because the positive energy from matter, is counteracted by the negative energy from gravity.
The energy would be zero, because gravitational energy is negative and it counteracts the positive energy ( light, matter and anti-matter).
Stephen Hawking describes why Gravity is considered negative energy, I will put what he says below.
"Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less [positive] energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together".
Since it takes positive energy to separate the two pieces of matter, gravity must be using negative energy to pull them together. Thus, "the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero."
One way to picture it could be to do with charge. An electron has a negative and a proton has a positive. However the overall charge is zero.
The example Hawking gave in his programme was digging a hole. when you dig a hole you end up with a pile and a hole. n and u, if you put the pile n back into the hole u, then it levels out.
Energy and charge are different, I just used charge as an example. I was just saying that positive and negative charge both exist, but they also cancel each other out, so the total charge is zero.
I agree, but then did god just appear one day in the middle of nothingness for no particular reason & just magic up a whole Universe complete with developed life forms in 7 days!?
At least the Big Bang doesn't imply the Universe was created as we know it today in a ridiculously short time! & heard of evolution? Kinda makes more sense than a human just appearing!
Much of the energy is randomly lost with death. We cannot find a logical place for it to have gone. Also, the soul must go somewhere as it cannot have but dissapeared due to the laws of Thermodynamics.
An Intelligent Designer seems incredibly possible since our universe is so fine tuned
What makes you believe that universe is fine tuned?
There are certain physical laws according which energy and matter are interacting with each others, and the rest is just a consequence of those laws. What is so fine tuned about the universe?
Is it really fine tuned that Sun will one they get cold and all life on Earth will die? Or is it fine tuned that we can get struck by an asteroid any time possible? Do you think it is fine tuned to have a myriad of different religions which possibly violently conflict with each other? Or do you believe that fine tuning is when people die in agony of cancer, Ebola, aids or murderous knife? Which part of the misery you believe is fine tuned?
If your God is such a wonderful creator, why didn't he get back after 2000 years and told humans what to do as he used to? After all he terminated Sodom and Gomorrah because humans there got bad. He also killed everybody but Noah since he wasn't really satisfied how people become. Do you really try to tell that our world is such fine tuned that God is really happy with people of today, where big parts of the planet are in constant war and hatred, where millions are dying of hunger and thirst, lack of basic hygiene and medicines, where humans are used as slaves just to produce cheap bananas and t-shirts for people in west so those can spend their time arguing about goodness of the God?
What makes you think I talk about "Christian God"? Do you really believe there is like "Christian" or "Muslim" God?
Try to put on your reading skills and please answer the question; what makes you believe that universe is fine tuned?
To not be a prick I can clarify that I speak about any religions that humanity came up with, but you obviously are referring to Judaism and religions spun from it, since those religions are all indoctrinated with "all mighty creator" fairy tales.
I am not talking about any religion what so ever. My diction and syntax implies an intelligent creator which amibitions unknown to man. Not the religions on earth. Please. Read through all my arguments and twll me where I said Judaism.
So wsn't I either but you seem not able to realize it. I am talking about your "fine tuned" universe which it is not, but you seem to not being able to realize it. The mere fact that there are "religions on earth" like you say which cauze suffering makes the universe not fine tuned. But maybe you live in some other universe that we other human being ar enot able to sense, so maybe that universe of yours is "tine Tunded". Your rhetorics are too shallow, and you have no arguments for your statements.
You said that univers is "fine tuned". Tell me what is your argument that universe is fine tuned? Do you believe it is fine tuned universe if thousands of people die of a tsunami in one day?
There is not much to read because you have no arguments at all; all you have are bisarre statements you don't understand properaly yourself. You don't seem to be able to understand that I have never put any words in your mouth. If I say that religion is proof of a world not being fine tuned, it does not mean that you are talking about religion. It means that your "creator" who fine tuned the universe has made stupid misstake since he created religion too. If you believe in an ultimate creator, than you have to accept the fact that he/she created everything, and thus religion too. I am not speaking neither of religions per se. You have to meditate better over what you are reading.
Fine tuned? Again you are only seeing this from a human perspective. If the Earth get hit by a apocalyptic meteor the universe is still going to do what it does. If you have studied the universe you would find it to be quite interesting and perhaps even mind boggling. Also the universe cant spawn out of nowhere.
Fine tuned? Again you are only seeing this from a human perspective.
Does it mean that we humans are not part of the universe? Isn't all we created a part of universe as well. Isn't also all that matters to us a part of universe?
If the Earth get hit by a apocalyptic meteor the universe is still going to do what it does.
So you mean the universe is fine tuned because intelligent creator made life and also made it possible for that life to get exterminated by a giant stone falling of the sky? Or you mean the universe is fine tuned because your intteligent creator made it sure for life to exterminate one day by making Sun run out of the fuel? Is that what you are pooping out as a proof of universe being fine tuned? Why would he bother than if he was so intelligent?
Once again: what makes universe fine tuned? Since you find "fine tuned" to be proof of intelligent creator I guess you should be able to at least say what is "fine tuned" in universe.
If you have studied the universe you would find it to be quite interesting and perhaps even mind boggling.
What do you know what I have studied or not? Do you know even who I am? How do you know I am not a proffesor in physics or astronomi? You assume too much. It is a sign of not very bright person, and your poops of claims just proof that.
Also the universe cant spawn out of nowhere.
How do you know that? You seem to be sure of that; is it also "obvious", just as your poop of "fine tuning?
Of course I do not know you sir. But one thing is that you said "astronomi" so I must begin to assume things. Also I havent seen anything disproving an intelligent creator of any sort regardless of what humans may think.
But one thing is that you said "astronomi" so I must begin to assume things.
Where did I said astronomi? And why would you assume that I don't know nothing about astronomi? How can word "astronomi" imply that I haven't read about astronomi?
Also I havent seen anything disproving an intelligent creator of any sort regardless of what humans may think. And what proofs for "intelligent design" have you seen? :-)
Of course I do not know you sir. But one thing is that you said "astronomi" so I must begin to assume things. Also I havent seen anything disproving an intelligent creator of any sort regardless of what humans may think.
What part of the statement is a question? Why is there no question mark there?
The only one who is avoiding question is you young lady. You still haven't asnwered: what makes universe so fine tuned?
In truth, there is only one God. There is no "Christian God" nor "Muslim God" nor any other specific religion-related God. If there is a God, he is one.
You are mainly discussing worldly issues here. They said that the universe was fine-tuned, not that the people in the world were perfect or that life is easy. You were definitely not getting the point that they were attempting to get across.
Simple. How do you create something that is eternal and had been eternal and will be eternal and existed during all time on an infinite scale? You cant. You cant make an eternal being. You cant make something that existed before you.
So your argument to 'where did god come from?' is he has always existed.
So he was just chilin for eternity when 1 day he thought ' it! I'll create a Universe'.
Does that seem realistic?
So, according to you, he always existed.
This is similar to steady state theory, which says the Universe has always existed as it it, but as it expands, new matter is created in the new space to keep the Universe always looking the same.
There are a number of philosophical arguments that allow for the existence of God. These arguments have withstood a long history of criticism and, in their current form, offer formulations that take into account this criticism and are based on the discoveries of modern science.
An Intelligent Designer seems incredibly possible since our universe is so fine tuned and the laws of thermodynamics can be applied in a sense that supports the existence of a much larger eternal being.
What is your argument that fine tuned universe needs a creator? If univers was fine tuned it is still not proof that intelligent designer created it; there is no implication or equivalence between those two.
What is your proof that universe is fine tuned?
None of that you say has any logical ground; both are subjective statements of yours which you are not able to proof, nor even understand seems like.
Your claim is that universe is so fine tuned that it is obvious it has intteligent creator.
If you can not proof "the obvioius" why are you than stating it is obvious? Sound ridicolous to me like everything else you pooped out in this debate.
By the way, to me this debate seems to about gods existence, not about if you can proof if unieverse is fine tuned or not. Also you should maybe read arguments on other side and see how my very first post openes before you poop out accusation from your mouth what I realize or not.
No I think you should read my initial posts. My original argument was that if matter cannot create nor destroy itself then something must bring it into existense. Also I dont think I am "pooping" out anything. I am only stating this from a more universal perspective.
No I think you should read my initial posts. My original argument was that if matter cannot create nor destroy itself then something must bring it into existense. And what I wrote just few lines above? Exactly stating that energy conservation was your argument and it is exactly one argument that says against your claim that something has to bring it into existence.
Energy conversation is not argument that "something has to bring it into existence". It is argument that universe exists on its own, eternally.
No I think you should read my initial posts. My original argument was that if matter cannot create nor destroy itself then something must bring it into existense.
No you don't. You are pooping claims you don't udnerstand. Explain what makes universe "fine tuned".
:) what question? Where is question? In your imagination?
Why didn't you answer question what makes universe so fine tuned?
I think you have dicredeted youself since long time ago. You have no idea what you are talking about & you lack capability to use reason in your logic. You are just repeating some poop you have heard or read elsewhere which you even can't understand properly.
The thing about God is that we cannot find any proof that he is not there.
And if one has it in their heads that they will not ever even try to believe or understand, they will not, even if they have all the proof they need around them.
The thing about God is that we cannot find any proof that he is not there.
She was saying that. She meant both sides.
But, that is a ridiculous concept. You are making a claim that He exists. It is up to you to provide something that shows He exists. It isn't up to us to determine everything that doesn't exist. It is impossible to disprove every imaginary being that people come up with.
I completely understand, and find your viewpoint completely respectable. Had I been in your position, I would have undoubtedly had the same opinion. I mean to tell you that I am a human of rationality.
However, having looked into the Quran, I found that there are no contradictions, no vile thoughts or views. Not only that, but I found that it contained scientific breakthroughs that had only been discovered recently, while the Book had been written 1400 years back.
People may complain that the scientific knowledge in the Book are too "vague", but if one has it in his mind to disbelieve, he will.
One must look upon the Books (Bible, Torah, Quran) in search of truth, not anything else.
I mean to tell you that I am a human of rationality.
Instead of telling me, actually act rational.
However, having looked into the Quran, I found that there are no contradictions, no vile thoughts or views. Not only that, but I found that it contained scientific breakthroughs that had only been discovered recently, while the Book had been written 1400 years back.
There is a section in the Quran that tells you if any part of the Quran contradicts itself use the later portion.
People may complain that the scientific knowledge in the Book are too "vague", but if one has it in his mind to disbelieve, he will.
If one has in his mind that he would like to know how biological processes work in a specific manner so that he can create modern medicine, he will avoid the vague Quran.
One must look upon the Books (Bible, Torah, Quran) in search of truth, not anything else.
You are using books that are supposed to help you be a better person, not to deliver the truth. You are using it wrong.
There is a section in the Quran that tells you if any part of the Quran contradicts itself use the later portion.
Show me this "section".
If one has in his mind that he would like to know how biological processes work in a specific manner so that he can create modern medicine, he will avoid the vague Quran.
You are speaking of looking through the Quran for the creation of modern medicine, through a biological process, in a specific manner. If the Quran were to list every possible way of surgery and medicine and healing, as well as every minute detail of every single aspect of our lives, it would be an encyclopedia and not a Holy Book stating not how to do every little thing in our lives, but the morals and laws we should live by.
You are using books that are supposed to help you be a better person, not to deliver the truth. You are using it wrong.
Firstly, who are you to tell me how to use books, let alone Holy ones?
Second, why can't being a better person be part of truth? Are you saying that being a better person is only related to "fiction", and that rational people are not good people, and don't strive to be better?
-None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
If there aren't contradictions, why do you have substitutions in the Quran?
You are speaking of looking through the Quran for the creation of modern medicine, through a biological process, in a specific manner. If the Quran were to list every possible way of surgery and medicine and healing, as well as every minute detail of every single aspect of our lives, it would be an encyclopedia and not a Holy Book stating not how to do every little thing in our lives, but the morals and laws we should live by.
Dude, you can't defend the scientific knowledge in the Quran and also remind everyone there is no scientific knowledge in the Quran. It doesn't need to be a complete encyclopedia. Just one thing from Allah with perfect scientific detail would have been great.
Firstly, who are you to tell me how to use books, let alone Holy ones?
Who are you to tell me how to use books? You gave the incorrect way to use your book. Evidence: "but the morals and laws we should live by" you admitting it isn't about truth.
Second, why can't being a better person be part of truth? Are you saying that being a better person is only related to "fiction", and that rational people are not good people, and don't strive to be better?
I didn't say anything like that. Being a better person does not have to be based on truth. It can be, but in the case of religious texts it isn't supposed to be. They are stories to illustrate points. All I was saying is that one does not lead to the other or vice versa. I made no comment about rational people. It was actually irrational for you to bring that up.
The simulation argument is the only interesting argument for the existance of a creator, but the god that has evoled out of the DAMN bible? no way... The idea of a god has evolved throughout history and that's why the word "god" has many definitions. The god you are referring to isn't the one that came out of the bible, it's a different one, in other words it's a result of your own "self" trying to make sense of the word god itself, I just go one god further. It's a delusional state of mind, a form of mental illness...
Yes, everything is awe inspiringly fine tuned. So the Universe looks as though it has been created by a supreme intelligence? And an entity amazing enough to have done that, must itself have been created by an even greater intelligence....
Is the universe so fine tuned? To me, life seems poorly engineered. We have blind-spots in our eyes, because the veins in our eyes obstruct our vision. We have an appendix that serves no purpose except to occasionally become inflamed and kill us. Our reproductive system is mixed in with our body's sewer system. Our minds are easily deceived because they seem more tuned to surviving in the wild than living in our modern world. Is this how you would design a human being? Can you really say we are "intelligently" designed?
A better question is..."Is what people say about god true?". Because of course god exists, at the very least conceptually. Another better question is..."Is god a matter of serious concern to us?" to which any honest thinking person who wasn't raised to be ignorant of history must answer yes. Attempting to argue that god does not exist is as pointless as arguing about whether or not there is a universe. The question is not "does the universe exist?", it is "how can we improve our understanding of the universe?"
A better question is..."Is what people say about god true?". Because of course god exists, at the very least conceptually.
The question of whether or not god exists is equally important as it directly effects the importance of understanding god better. If god only exists conceptually, then it doesn't really matter, as god could be anything you want it to be, being a concept and all.
Another better question is..."Is god a matter of serious concern to us?" to which any honest thinking person who wasn't raised to be ignorant of history must answer yes.
What exactly do you mean here? I agree with that statement but for different reasons.
Attempting to argue that god does not exist is as pointless as arguing about whether or not there is a universe.
Nobody is really arguing god doesn't exist as much as they are arguing that there is no reason to think so. If we are talking about reason to think something exists, it makes significantly more sense to argue against the idea of a god but not the universe. There is significantly more reason to acknowledge the universe exists then god.
The question of whether or not god exists is equally important as it directly effects the importance of understanding god better.
If we accept that god exists at least as a concept then we have moved beyond asking if god exists and may now logically progress to questions about god's characteristic qualities. You cannot logically discuss the qualities of something assumed to not exist.
If god only exists conceptually, then it doesn't really matter, as god could be anything you want it to be, being a concept and all.
Ideas have consequences, and thinking of god strictly as an ideological construct, this ideological construct matters alot because it affects the way us humans interact with each other. If god did not exist, god would not have major sociological implications.
What exactly do you mean here? I agree with that statement but for different reasons.
That's strikes me as odd. You agree with the statement for reasons different than what I have yet to explain to your satisfaction. ie you don't know exactly what I meant, but you know enough to know that you agree for different reasons. I'll be happy to discuss effects of god after you admit god exists. Start a new debate and invite me.
Nobody is really arguing god doesn't exist as much as they are arguing that there is no reason to think so.
If we do not first accept the premise that: "truths can be known about god", then any statement or question posed with the word god as the subject remains meaningless.
If we are talking about reason to think something exists, it makes significantly more sense to argue against the idea of a god but not the universe.
really? Why do you believe in "The Universe" instead of "The Multiverses" ?
There is significantly more reason to acknowledge the universe exists then god.'
Pantheists understand the universe as god, Do you think they believe this for "No reason"?
If we accept that god exists at least as a concept then we have moved beyond asking if god exists and may now logically progress to questions about god's characteristic qualities. You cannot logically discuss the qualities of something assumed to not exist.
Exactly, my point, whether or not god exists, directly effects the importance of understanding what god is like. If god only exists as a concept, making sense of gods existence in relation to ours is unnecessary and does nothing for us, other than making some good fun in having some fantasy maybe. If god exists more than just a concept, then understanding god as an actual thing beyond an idea is relevant because it relates to us. Actual things can effect other actual things but I am sure you know this. If god is only a concept, then god can't have an effect on us like an actual thing, only as a concept or the influence of the concept. We can logically discuss the qualities of god if god only conceptually exists, as what god was supposed to mean, what god is in actuality, if god is a concept is illogical with having purpose behind discussing the qualities other than fun, and that is how it should be. We can discuss the qualities of an actual unicorn hypothetically all day long, but it would be illogical to discuss the qualities of unicorns in actuality if it was beyond the reasons of amusement, or as if we genuinely thought that unicorns exist. So since it is illogical to discuss the qualities of unicorns beyond reasons of amusement, and partaking in harmless fantasy, should we believe unicorns exist so that we can logically discuss the qualities of unicorns seriously? By your logic we should. My point is that god's existence is equally if not more important than an understanding of god, it isn't a question that should be ignored as long as we are seriously contemplating the qualities of a god. If we are to seriously contemplate the qualities of a god, then we should do so also contemplating whether or not god exists beyond that of a concept. To not acknowledge god's existence at all as a concept is silly, but I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. It is like two people arguing over whether or not there are people who die from unicorns, but not taking a moment to even think "wait do unicorns even exist?".
Ideas have consequences, and thinking of god strictly as an ideological construct, this ideological construct matters alot because it affects the way us humans interact with each other. If god did not exist, god would not have major sociological implications.
See, here I agree and disagree at the same time, when I said if god only exists conceptually, then it doesn't matter, what I meant was, what god would be in actuality hardly matters. If god doesn't exist then arguing whether or not god is just ignoring us, is the universe, what morals god has, what god expects from people, is all pointless, unless you are just playing with fantasy, and not taking any of it seriously but only to that extent. The reason the concept of god has such a huge effect on us is mostly because people believe in him/her/it/whatever, so to make the argument that god exists because it effects strongly how we treat each other is the same argument as "because so many people believe in god, then god exists". That isn't a reason to think god exists as an actual thing, unless you again meant conceptually, if you meant conceptually then I COMPLETELY agree with your statement, and I doubt anybody will argue with us there. Both atheist and theists, acknowledge that the idea of god exists, no reasonable person who has heard of god thinks that the concept of god doesn't exist. Everyone for the most part know that the concept is there, otherwise we wouldn't be able to debate about it here.
That's strikes me as odd. You agree with the statement for reasons different than what I have yet to explain to your satisfaction. ie you don't know exactly what I meant, but you know enough to know that you agree for different reasons.
I think we ran into a misunderstanding as I agreed with the statement that a better question was "is god a matter of serious concern to us?" but figured we had different answers to that question thus resulting in different reasons. I assumed since you are arguing that god does exist, that the question "Is god a serious matter of concern to us?" I assumed that your answer to that question is yes, while mine is no. If you believe god exists, then god is a matter of concern to you, I guess I could see where you are saying no, because the word "serious" is in there, if that is your answer I apologie for being presumptuous. I think god isn't a matter of serious concern, cause we don't have a logical reason to think god exists (in actuality, not conceptually) in the first place. We aren't concerned with unicorns because we lack a reason to think they exist, that are actual or probable. I could argue unicorns are possible, even if it happens to be the most improbable thing in the world, they are still possible, I still don't believe in them, and I would argue it to be illogical to believe in them. As belief means you have to be certain, which means your level of certainty doesn't match the probability of the existence of unicorns.
I'll be happy to discuss effects of god after you admit god exists. Start a new debate and invite me.
Sounds like a fun debate, however I can only admit god exists conceptually as I cannot be more certain in god's existence, then gods inexistence (actually). I do admit god does exist as a concept though, but anyone would.
If we do not first accept the premise that: "truths can be known about god", then any statement or question posed with the word god as the subject remains meaningless.
Some truths can be known about god, because god is a concept, like any other concept. Like the truth that god exists conceptually, the truth that people believe in god, etc. However I am not convinced god exists beyond that, and no truths can be known beyond that at least in this time right now. So not every statement or question posed with the word god is meaningless, because it exists as a concept.
really? Why do you believe in "The Universe" instead of "The Multiverses" ?
I always thought if there was a multiverse, the universe would be apart of the multiverse, I am pretty certain with what I have observed about other humans, that we would still have a "universe" if we discovered a multiverse. I thought the word universe only referenced everything inside our "realm" of space and time, or all of space and time that our existence belonged to. A multiverse would just be multiple universes. By what I thought universe meant, obviously a universe exists, regardless of whether or not a multiverse exists.
Pantheists understand the universe as god, Do you think they believe this for "No reason"?
How do pantheists "understand the universe as god", what does that mean? Understanding implies that you acknowledge the truth of something, know about something, therefore understanding would here in this sentence would imply the universe is god as a truth. This can be justified by having the definition of god being universe, but I think both you and me know that wasn't what the word originally meant. Whenever and wherever the word god came it didn't mean everything, all ancient concepts of gods referred to something conscious, or/and the origin of literally absolutely everything. God was never meant to mean universe. If someone's "god" means universe, I KNOW your god exists, I just don't see the point in calling something that already has a name. Does universe not suffice? I used to be a "pure agnostic" leaning pantheistic. If god is the universe, I agree with the pantheists, I just don't identify with them and their use of the word "god" and have a valid reason in believing in this "god". If god means anything that is presumptuous by having no logical or evidential back up, then when I said there is no reason to believe it, I meant an adequate logic or evidence as to why the universe is god. There is still reason, just not a logical one.
Ideas have consequences, and thinking of god strictly as an ideological construct, this ideological construct matters alot because it affects the way us humans interact with each other. If god did not exist, god would not have major sociological implications.
Yes people also have concept of human spirit that live furhter on in bodys of those who live on, so they believed they have to eat members of the society that died. Eventually those cannibals developed mad cow desease. Yes, concepts have sociological implications. Does it prove that human spirit lives on in bodys of those who live further on if they eat up their dead ones?
Just beacuse you make a claim, and discuss about it, does not make it real. Your reasoning is illogical. Even if we go along your line and say there is a concept of god, than we can also say there is a concept of universe without a god and apply your very same logic to it and implicate that it means we can reason about universe without a god which proofs there is no god. That is implication of your logic.
If we accept that god exists at least as a concept then we have moved beyond asking if god exists and may now logically progress to questions about god's characteristic qualities. You cannot logically discuss the qualities of something assumed to not exist.
Concept of something; and something real are two different things. A concept by definition is just an idea, a thought, something abstract that exist only in your mind. Thus you are right, you can progress with reasoning about your imaginery concept, in your own head, but you will never be able to experience or proof any of qualities you assume your imaginery god has.
The fact that you are so quick to say that God exists without a doubt and then criticizing people of being ignorant of history(read some darwin) is quite ironic.
Darwin said in The Origin of Man that evolution could not have happened without God, citing the complexity of the eye as a major example of how the human body alone must have had an intelligent designer. (read some Darwin)
Honestly i get where ATYPIC is coming from. i myself do not believe in any deity. what im taking from his comments is this; people will believe whatever they choose - although there is no physical proof for any known deities it is illogical to think the beliefs of those who worship certain deities isnt proof in itself. once we acknowledge this fact we can then argue the flaws and detrimental effects of said deity.
You're playing with words. "Is what people say about God true?" is the same question as "Does God exist?". When people ask that question they're not talking about whether God exists as a concept. They're talking about whether he exists as a God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority.
"Is what people say about God true?" is the same question as "Does God exist?".
This is not true. There is not a universally accepted definition of god. To illustrate this, I'd pose the question to you: Does god exist as described by pantheists?
When people ask that question they're not talking about whether God exists as a concept.
This is because we can all agree that "god exists, at least as a concept". Accepting this premise is necessary to any logical discussion about god. The other premise that must be accepted is that "truths can be known about god". Without acceptance of these two premises, the term god can only be used in an illogical manner.
They're talking about whether he exists as a God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority.
I'm not viewing god in a manner orthodox enough for you eh?
There are numerous calculations and measurements in the Bible from specific measurements in building designs instructed by God and in dates and times found the Bible.
Well I dont know why God put it there. Id imagine the book is so full of knowledge and wisdom and understanding that on one side its a confirmation that there is an outside influence and showing something that specific.
Even complete to the 4th decimal place in equations beyond the writers knowledge and ability. So it was a purposeful design to authenticate it. Or sign it as authored by more than the men that physically penned it.
Also God confounds the wise and mocks fools. So when the book is opened the foolishness of academia that denied God and caused multitudes to stumble and not seek God. When it is unrolled it will both mock and judge them. The blood of those they cause to stumble will be on their hands.
As far as the math itself, Im not a mathematician, so I can only think of known application as a lay person. Pi is measurements of a circle, inside out, and across etc...
pi appears in all sorts of calculations for physics, engineering, electrical systems.
The double-helix is DNA revolves around pi. Pi is in the rainbow, the pupil of the eye, and when a raindrop falls into water pi emerges in the spreading rings. It appears in colors and in music. It is also used in probability and statistics.
So I think the placement is not a calculation as in a word problem. But all incompassing of God's creation, intervention, judgement, and salvation. He brings creation full circle from creation to fall to our redemption.
Fullness of His dwelling. Complete measurement. God uses math and measurements within the scriptures also. Like measurements of the Noahs Ark and the Ark of the Covenant. And all kinds of measurements. So measurements and math are not foriegn to the actual reading of the written text.
So hidden in verse 1 of chapter 1 in Genesis and In John 1: 1 is profound and absolute design written by more than the pen of men!!
Gen 6 - Ark Measurements
14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks.
17 Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And "e" found in John 1: 1 Would be measurements of exponential growth. Which is what happened bt the Jews initially rejecting the Messiah.
Causing it to go out to the Gentiles. But also prophesied to come full circle, and lift the veil. To make a round trip so to speak, to reveal to the Jews also so in the end they also see the Messiah as who He is, Jesus.
Completing His creation full circle! And His salvation saves exponentially.
"God exist" Proof please? All I see is a book that has been wrongly translated and changed within the years. Even then the whole entire book doesn't make sense. God said "Let there be light" So he somehow conjured up light and everything dealing with it? Nope, let science handle this one. Also one more thing, provide points not questions. You seem like a pasture trying to get laid by Christians. In my understanding god is supposedly our lord and if we disobey him he tortures us? Doesn't seem godlike to me. Also about your universe theory you say saying no god means there is no universe.
Not even close. Before the big bang there was no universe or time that god could have made the universe, there were no law of physics or any laws. For something to happen there must have been something earlier in time that caused that event. Asking if god made the universe is a stupid question itself. It's like asking wheres the edge of the earth. there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything.
Some believe that God let the universe evolve by inserting a few laws that do not intervene with the laws in the universe. As long as the universe was created maybe we have a creator as well. If the the universe is completely self contained having no boundary or edge; would it mean there is no beginning nor ending. Don't try and put your little pea brain against this kind of mind, I am the best.
You already told me that God is fake, but you are dumbass anyway. Why should I give a flying fuck about you calling me a faggot even though I am not? Well, because it is offensive.
My references are at the bottom. Yes GOD does exist. Scientific data has been slowly and steadily proving many biblical scriptures to be a truthful reality. For example, according to Genesis the earth is just over 6,000 years old. Science has stated the earth and the planetary bodies in our solar system are 4.53 billion years old. Either creationism or naturalistic atheist way is wrong. We can’t have both. Consider this then; Titan, one of Saturn’s many moons, is covered in kilometer thick 4.5 percent methane atmosphere along with 94 percent nitrogen and other trace elements. Scientific data has proven that solar radiation when bombarding methane changes the methane into a heavy hydrocarbon called ethane (C2H6). Since Titan has a sub zero temperature any ethane would drop to the surface and create oceans of ethane maybe miles deep. This data was published in 1980. In 2005 the Huygens Lander set down on Titan and proved something very strange. Huygens recorded that there was not much ethane on Titans surface. Being 4.5 billion years old calculations have indicated there would be no methane at all only ethane on the surface. This odd phenomenon as scientist dubbed it points to a Titan that is 5 to 8 thousand years old rather than 4.5 billion. Here science has indicated that abundant methane there is evidence for a younger Titan, while scientists insist there is some natural phenomenon to explain why the methane is still there. This young Titan falls in line with biblical scripture in Genesis. In correcting its own deficiencies and errors, science is proving the existence of GOD and the truthfulness of scripture. There is much more to consider also, such as DNA being extracted from a 450 million year old fossil. DNA has a shelf life of 50,000 years under ideal storage conditions. How then can a fossil contain DNA if it is 450 million years old? This and other questions need to be answered and science is not doing a very good job. It is time to rethink the way we do our thinking.
References:
G. Lindal et al. (1983). "The atmosphere of Titan: An analysis of the Voyager 1 radio occultation measurements". Icarus 53 (2): 348–363.
Staff (April 3, 2013). "NASA team investigates complex chemistry at Titan". Phys.Org.
Coustenis, A. (2005). "Formation and evolution of Titan’s atmosphere". Space Science Reviews 116 (1-2): 171–184
I don't know if you're aware, but saturn's moon, Titan, is not in fact, Earth. As two completely separate bodies in space, they are entitled to different ages. Titan is also a moon, not a planetary body. And, uh, stop watching Jurassic park, nobody has dinosaur DNA.
I don't know if you're aware, but saturn's moon, Titan, is not in fact, Earth. As two completely separate bodies in space, they are entitled to different ages.
God created our concept of "time." He is outside of time, therefore the laws of time do not apply to him. He is immutable (does not change) does not age, and does not have a beginning or an end, as those things only apply to something inside of time.
I always have the same song pop into my head when this debate topic comes up. When I was a younger man and used to go to church, there was a song the church sang quite often that had the line "You ask me how I know he lives? He LIVES within my heart"
That line has since become the end all to my debates on the subject. People have a right to believe anything they want to (1st Amendment) and to the extent that God* lives in some people's hearts (and or minds)... He effectively "lives" in our world.
No idea, but some believe God is simply the universe... well, that's real. Some believe he was a normal ancient teacher like Jesus, Mohammed or Buddha... possible?
Only thing possible is that some people might believe it. Also some people believed there was god of fortune, god of war, god of water and so on. But just because people believe it does not mean it is true. For example people believed that Sun orbits the Earth but juest their faith didn't make it happen.
If he was ancient teacher, it means he was a mortal human and it is not possible that he is still alive than. If he was a human being that lived thousands yeras ago it implicates that he died and thus does not exist. So your argument is actually for atheism.
To be honest, I don't think that argument contributes anything substantial to this discussion.
And therefore nobody who has ever died exists. Dinosaurs don't exist!
I support that some ideas of God exist. I just think people may have got it all a little bit wrong... possibly. (how can I be sure?)
I am a theist, of sorts. I 'believe' in three different types of deity, like the primary colours. Blue is the wise buddha, Red is the strong devi, Yellow is the all-encompassing kami when awake (still looking into that one), and white is the potential nature of kami, of everything. Black is the void or absence. But these are my personal 'beliefs', so I can't really debate them as I have very little available proof, or motive to present said proof.
Per definition those that died those not exist :-) Otherwise there would be no use of having word died at all :-) You are just stating tautologi out of definition, so what is the point?
There are many ideas of God in existence, and there were many more during the past history. There is also idea of Santa Claus, toothfairy, Smurfs and Donald Duck. Do you believe all those exists too just because there is an idea about them?
Why not 4 deitys than? Or 1, or 5? Just because you believe in an idea, it does not make it real. People believed it was god wish that some mothers died after giving the birth. Untill a certain doctor didn't find out they got inflamation by mikroorganisms because of dirty hands and instruments. There are a log of ideas people believe in. But only those that can be proofed by physical evidence and/or logical reasoning survive over time.
These are just the primary types- there are also secondary's like the trinity, the kami-unified and other partnerships. And yes, I 'believe' in eternity and everything existing, therefore I 'believe' that santa (the geezer actually did exist, st. nicholas) etc. will come to pass. I don't believe in it, I 'believe' in it. Like f(x) is not f'(x)... (I didn't differentiate it btw).
There are so many different ways of describing the Christian/Jewish/... god, and no doubt some of them are real.
No idea
So how can you have no doubts if you have no idea if there is at least one real description? Why would there be so many different descriptions if only one was real? If there are several real as you say, why would there be several different descriptions of god?
Maybe they are different gods? Think about it. X culture believes in God. N god is presented, and is accepted as X god. Such as Athena and Minerva, or Brigid and St. Bridget.
So you believe there are many many gods. Do you believe in spaghetti god? http://www.venganza.org/
Shouldn't that be proof for you that people got it wrong - there is no god! If there was a god or even several, people should have perception of him/them and would not be inventing gods over and over and over.
God(s) are created by people because those people can't do better!
I 'believe' in his noodlyness. May you be touched by his noodly appendage, unbeliever.
There will come a time to pass that a spaghetti god will create a world, and that will be perfectly normal. I mean... to use an old argument... we're on an organic spaceship orbiting a massive source of energy. Everything about us is weird, and yet we think it is perfectly normal. A spaghetti monster (which by the way, I am already familiar with~ I did my 'unusual beliefs' presentation on it in TOK) is not that strange.
I'm unconvertible at the moment. And how do I buy noodles for someone who probably lives in a different country, whose Identity I have no way of knowing?
I would provide you with all means to buy me a bowl of noodles to experince the god. Or maybe you could ask krishna to give you all the knowledge you need?
By the way do you mean you are going to be convertible later on? Are we talking about future upgrade? Eliva 2.0?
To be honest, you started to poop unseriousnes coz you had no arguments for your claims didn't you?
I am not into converting anybody, but just wanna hear one rational argument pro religion that is not based on subjective beliefs, pseudo-science or facts missunderstanding.
if your live in India then your will come to know that there is many supernatural ativities which prove that god exist.I am not writing this because i am theism but i saw all the things which were happening in temples,maszits and many more.
I can also give you some example to support my answer:
at jammu and kashmir katra veshnu devi mandir-A flame is coming out from the rocks since the rule of akhbar.
himachal pradesh chamba naagbintru-If you say that Philosophy that you want to see the snake king in his biggest avtar then you will see him in his bigest avtar.
there are many other example which prove that god exist.If you want to know your answer practically the n the only thing you have to do is come to india and visit to the local areas of himachal for sure.There you will see alot of examples by which you will be satisfied that god is present.
My references are at the bottom. Yes GOD does exist. Scientific data has been slowly and steadily proving many biblical scriptures to be a truthful reality. For example, according to Genesis the earth is just over 6,000 years old. Science has stated the earth and the planetary bodies in our solar system are 4.53 billion years old. Either creationism or naturalistic atheist way is wrong. We can’t have both. Consider this then; Titan, one of Saturn’s many moons, is covered in kilometer thick 4.5 percent methane atmosphere along with 94 percent nitrogen and other trace elements. Scientific data has proven that solar radiation when bombarding methane changes the methane into a heavy hydrocarbon called ethane (C2H6). Since Titan has a sub zero temperature any ethane would drop to the surface and create oceans of ethane maybe miles deep. This data was published in 1980. In 2005 the Huygens Lander set down on Titan and proved something very strange. Huygens recorded that there was not much ethane on Titans surface. Being 4.5 billion years old calculations have indicated there would be no methane at all only ethane on the surface. This odd phenomenon as scientist dubbed it points to a Titan that is 5 to 8 thousand years old rather than 4.5 billion. Here science has indicated that abundant methane there is evidence for a younger Titan, while scientists insist there is some natural phenomenon to explain why the methane is still there. This young Titan falls in line with biblical scripture in Genesis. In correcting its own deficiencies and errors, science is proving the existence of GOD and the truthfulness of scripture. There is much more to consider also, such as DNA being extracted from a 450 million year old fossil. DNA has a shelf life of 50,000 years under ideal storage conditions. How then can a fossil contain DNA if it is 450 million years old? This and other questions need to be answered and science is not doing a very good job. It is time to rethink the way we do our thinking.
References:
G. Lindal et al. (1983). "The atmosphere of Titan: An analysis of the Voyager 1 radio occultation measurements". Icarus 53 (2): 348–363.
Staff (April 3, 2013). "NASA team investigates complex chemistry at Titan". Phys.Org.
Coustenis, A. (2005). "Formation and evolution of Titan’s atmosphere". Space Science Reviews 116 (1-2): 171–184
You do realize that titan may have formed much later than other planets or even moons in the solar system, and even later still acquired it's methane atmosphere even later. In regard to the Huygens Lander mission there is very little controversy now and more up to date articles on Titan can be found on NASA's website and respective links on it.
Who does not believe in God. I believe in the one through God whose name is Jesus. I bet DanaforYeshua and other Christian believers will say the same thing. I bring a question to all atheism people "If God does not exist, where do you go when you die?" In my opinion all atheism will go to hell when they die as they never believe in Jesus our mighty saviour. I advise all atheism all people to start believing as death is like a blind hand. It will sweep you away without realising it. Here is the sinners prayer:
"Heavenly Father, have mercy on me, a sinner. I believe in you and that your word is true. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that he died on the cross so that I may now have forgiveness for my sins and eternal life. I know that without you in my heart my life is meaningless.
I believe in my heart that you, Lord God, raised Him from the dead. Please Jesus forgive me, for every sin I have ever committed or done in my heart, please Lord Jesus forgive me and come into my heart as my personal Lord and Savior today. I need you to be my Father and my friend.
I give you my life and ask you to take full control from this moment on; I pray this in the name of Jesus Christ."
Amen.
Pray this prayer soon. You will experience his wonders and grace by doing so. Also come to the church nearest your home every Sunday to hear his promises for you.
I bring a question to all atheism people "If God does not exist, where do you go when you die?"
As if you have any idea whatsoever. And just because you might be right about heaven and hell doesnt mean i should abandon all critical thinking skill and force myself into blind faith somehow in an attempt to cover my ass.
"Heavenly Father, have mercy on me, a sinner. I believe in you and that your word is true. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that he died on the cross so that I may now have forgiveness for my sins and eternal life
Just saying you believe something does not mean you actually believe it, nor does it make it true. For example, i could SAY that i believe in unicorns. Do i actually believe in them? no. i assure you i dont. And just because i might have believed in them did not make them true for those few seconds, nor for any amount of time.
I know that without you in my heart my life is meaningless.
A few of america's founders were atheists, were their lives meaningless? So was Clarence Darrow, and Douglas Adams, and Peter Atkins, and Julius Axelrod, and ALL OF THESE PEOPLE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listsofatheists
Were their lives meaningless? No. They were more meaningfull than one million of you put together. And they were so without your God.
Pray this prayer soon. You will experience his wonders and grace by doing so
I humored you and said it with full emotion. I felt nothing but the itch of a mosquito bite on my ankle and nothing more. Your wishfull thinking might trick YOU into thinking something happens when such magic words are uttered, but not me. Not us rational human beings. Sorry.
Also come to the church nearest your home every Sunday to hear his promises for you.
All i hear is "give us money". No, im not going to a church. What's the point? The bible already says that you should pray alone and not for attention and whatnot so why do you HAVE to meet up? You have all the tools you need, a bible and two clasped hands. Now i dont think that that means shit but it just goes to show you churches are pointless money funnels. I mean, you gotta have very little personal thought to even be a christian, but to be a church goer, you gotta have no personal thought whatsoever.
Also, god has a shitty track record of keeping promises. Ill take my chances with persuing my goals using my own skills and work. Thanks
Ave Satanas, believe what you believe. I don't care if you don't come to church or receive Christ because you will be going to hell and I will be going to heaven. Maybe one day, Jesus will show you something that will make you believe but until then, I will be waving at you from heaven while you are burning in hell. You should listen to me even if I am 13 because this is what is good for you. And btw, the lives of Clarence Darrow and Peter Atkins may not be meaningless now but there are certainly going to suffer in hell when they die. And at church, you don't give money, your'e receiving more of Jesus favour
In Bible Codes, some are far out and take it far out. But some are a signature of Divine Authorship. And these ones are definitely signatures as if He etched His Word with His own hand.
Pi found in Genesis 1: 1 and adv math e found in John 1: 1.
These aren't spread out, found in difficulty, and in need of twisting. These two adv math codes are found, each found using within one verse. And each one found separately in chapter one of two seperate books, written in two separate millennials, in written in two separate languages. And the nature of interpretation works with what is there from the ancient text.
And the odds of them occurring at any point at all within all 66 books of the Bible is in probabilities of unreasonable proportions.
What do you think is the probability of a few of these together found coded in the Bible? If just musing at first glance, wouldn't you say, " no way?" I'm not even saying in the whole Bible. What is the probability all these are found in only six books out if 66?
As for me, I dont think a calculation is needed to tell me that is an unreasonable probability in calculations of a snowflakes chance in Hell!
Even crazier, pi and e are coded in two different languages, Hebrew for Jews and Greek was a time period of the Gospel's progression out to the Gentiles.
And both verses state "In the beginning," so they each speak of a time period of Creation and in Jesus as the Creator. And advanced math equations not known yet for 1000s of years to come.
In Genesis 1: 1 pi equation is encoded, in creation of the world and universe and in God stitching prophesy into appointed times to bring Creation full circle.
And in John 1: 1 in Greek while the Gospel is propelled out to the Gentiles, you find in verse one the equation for e, which is compound interest, multiplying exponentially.
So even the equations found communicate the purpose of the event. And even the Bible Author God, divided these times by purpose as shown in the 1st verses of these two books, Genesis and John. Then to add to this timetables for dating history is BC and AD.
So the Bible notes each beginning with a math equation. Then took the division of time line for dating history. And then add TORH TORH YHWY HROT HROT in the beginning of each of the five books of the Bible at intervals of Bible numbers of importance in the written text throughout every book of seven and forty-nine .
These singuarly are a stretch against reasonable probability, but for all to be right there on the top, not buried or crazy, together all these are proof of God and His Word. All of these together are impossible odds without Divine Authorship. Together these are more than just an oooh wow, these are against odds of probabilities that are not even be conceivable.
Now in contradiction beween the improbability of two faiths.
A comparison between Christianity and Evolution as ecplanation of Creation.
So on one hand, Evolutionism states strands of DNA self assembled and mutated and against all odds of occurance and against all odds of science principles and without any evidence of a physical example in front of our eyes, we are told to believe it. And that it is factual.
Then you take just these few pieces of many in evidence, tangible and available to view in everyone's individual hands. With everyone having the ability to test it, and even count out the codes for themselves, and literally proving itself in person from the beginning and in person showing agsinst all odds He not only created, but He put it in writing against all odds to prove it!
You have to be evil or an idiot to at least not step back and say there is more to God and the Bible than I currently think. Maybe I should look further!
There are numerous calculations and measurements in the Bible from specific measurements in building designs instructed by God and in dates and times found the Bible.
Well I dont know why God put it there. Id imagine the book is so full of knowledge and wisdom and understanding that on one side its a confirmation that there is an outside influence and showing something that specific.
Even complete to the 4th decimal place in equations beyond the writers knowledge and ability. So it was a purposeful design to authenticate it. Or sign it as authored by more than the men that physically penned it.
Also God confounds the wise and mocks fools. So when the book is opened the foolishness of academia that denied God and caused multitudes to stumble and not seek God. When it is unrolled it will both mock and judge them. The blood of those they cause to stumble will be on their hands.
As far as the math itself, Im not a mathematician, so I can only think of known application as a lay person. Pi is measurements of a circle, inside out, and across etc...
pi appears in all sorts of calculations for physics, engineering, electrical systems.
The double-helix is DNA revolves around pi. Pi is in the rainbow, the pupil of the eye, and when a raindrop falls into water pi emerges in the spreading rings. It appears in colors and in music. It is also used in probability and statistics.
So I think the placement is not a calculation as in a word problem. But all incompassing of God's creation, intervention, judgement, and salvation. He brings creation full circle from creation to fall to our redemption.
Fullness of His dwelling. Complete measurement. God uses math and measurements within the scriptures also. Like measurements of the Noahs Ark and the Ark of the Covenant. And all kinds of measurements. So measurements and math are not foriegn to the actual reading of the written text.
So hidden in verse 1 of chapter 1 in Genesis and In John 1: 1 is profound and absolute design written by more than the pen of men!!
Gen 6 - Ark Measurements
14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks.
17 Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And "e" found in John 1: 1 Would be measurements of exponential growth. Which is what happened bt the Jews initially rejecting the Messiah.
Causing it to go out to the Gentiles. But also prophesied to come full circle, and lift the veil. To make a round trip so to speak, to reveal to the Jews also so in the end they also see the Messiah as who He is, Jesus.
Completing His creation full circle! And His salvation saves exponentially.
In my opinion all atheism will go to hell when they die as they never believe in Jesus our mighty saviour. I advise all atheism all people to start believing as death is like a blind hand. It will sweep you away without realising it.
Someone can say this about any religion. Why should I believe Jesus is real over Krishna?
In my opinion all atheism will go to hell when they die as they never believe in Jesus our mighty saviour. I advise all atheism all people to start believing as death is like a blind hand. It will sweep you away without realising it.
Let me tell you a secret: death will sweep away you as well. It will ultimately sweep away each and every human :).
First off, what you just said wasn't even a real argument; it was more of an attack than anything. Also, what you just said simultaneously makes you and your cause look bad.
Now, Shemael is right here; you will be going to hell if you don't repent. If you do repent, I guarantee that it will be life-changing. If you want some evidence, look at Lee Stroble, author of The Case for Christ. He was an atheist like you and managed to find reasonable proof for the existence of God. I would recommend getting that book if you're still debating on whether God exists or not.
Lee Strobel and Frank Turek are complete liars when they claim they "meraculously converted from atheism to christianity". If you knew anything about the arguments for atheism and these people you would see that its a ploy to get people to read their books and stay firm to faith and nothing more.
managed to find reasonable proof for the existence of God
He didnt find ANY proof. All he found was petty suggestive evidence at best and even that is generous. I point you to youtube.com, go to the channel Stevelikestocurse and watch his "An Atheist Reads The Case For Christ" series.
I would recommend getting that book if you're still debating on whether God exists or not.
It's curious that you recommended it to those who are on the fence about God's existence and not to people who have already decided they dont believe in god. It's curious because apologists like Lee Strobel aim their books at these such people, the fence sitters. The people who are on the doorstep of christianity and are about to step out. These books are NOT for the informed atheist because they would see right through the poorly formed arguments and wouldnt let bias persuade them to accept the arguments. The people on the fence, however, are people who often WANT to be solidified back into their faiths and are looking for the evidence to help them relax back into christianity reassured. Thats who these books work on.
So again, i point you to that youtube series where the book is destroyed piece by piece and exposed for how poorly written it really is.
Shamael,fuck off dont preach,just prove,i can prove there is no god next sunday by walking in a church and let of a bomb,so why would tour god let all the ones who survive live with pain and that it happened in the safest place on earth,fuck off
It is interesting throughout history the message of love, peace and compassion becomes perverted even if the bearer of that message is a supreme cosmic power. The Big Bang can be likened as a mother that conceives the universe. So anyway, these prophets always get this epiphany from messengers be it Angel or during solidarity and isolation and to give words to them is the worst possible mistake. Their primitive minds uses this privilege to give themselves authority that their judgement, since 'I am the chosen one' absolute and just.
So do I believe in God? Yes. But because we undermine the original message
we need to move forward with the times and not take things too literally. Their purpose have been fulfilled and now everyone has faith but often forget the spiritual aspects of it. Segregation and murder is a choice made by humans. Even if your dusty tome tells you to, we all learn to draw the line since we all have common sense. Some people think the Big Bang is the final (boring too) answer some people dont. Perfectly understandable.
All I can say for those who do not believe in Jesus is Good Luck in hell. Only Jesus can perform miracles in your life. Read the story of Elijah in the bible and you will understand. But I don't think you atheism will ever read it.
Ive read the entire bible and it has actually made me MORE of an atheist. The whole thing is riddled with fabrications and errors it practically reflects the writing of a third grader.
Also, if you actually believe that not only are people who dont believe in god going to hell, but that they actually DESERVE to be tortured for eternity, youre a fucked up human being with absolutely zero sense of morality or personal thought beyond that of what your stupid book and insane religion has told you.
Hell is never mentioned in either the Torah or the Bible. The primitive and brief explanations given are of a proto-underworld similar to Hades' domain.
Fucked up dickhead,i dont think you will read the bible,i read it and then burnt it,and i will read it again and burn it once again,miracles today spastic,arent you living a shit life so you may have eternal life,so why any miracles today,must be for us no believers,as you dont need a miracle,you already believe,thick skull/little brain.
Now I don't fully believe in God, but I must say I can't disprove "its" existence. First of all, I have noticed in the Quran, there are many scientific claims that have been proven many times. There is a whole book about it, but what particularly interested me is The Big Bang, Shape of the Earth, the Moons source of light, and the existence of Atoms. I find this interesting because I study Physics and just love these concepts. Evolution has always seemed like an interesting idea to me, however there really has been so much controversy around it that I decided to scrap the whole idea. I mean, lets face it, Science has corrected itself millions of times while this 1000 year old book hasn't changed a word. Im not muslim, i dont want to be, its just interesting. When I mean controversy I mean that people have staged many fossils (and it hasn't been conducted fully in a lab and hasn't been quantified). To conclude, you can't quantify God, and I only believe in things you can explain in a formula. But this is.... coincidence?
It's weird that you find the shape of the earth and the moons "source of light" interesting since those things are so simple to understand. The earth is round because gravity compresses it. Try putting some putty on a table and wait for a bit. it will smooth out and flatten out. The moon's "light source" is the sun's light waves reflecting off the moon.
Describe to me how gravity shapes the Earth; what is gravity; what all does gravity affect and how; why round; etc. I could do the same for the moon analogy, but I think you see my point.
It is foolish to say you can completly disprove or prove God's existance. In my opinion he wanted it to be this way, so you must have faith. One thing I find stupid is when people get mad at God, because they think is design is stupid, when in face you are nothing compared to him.
So you think that brain cancer is well programmed feature by the God? As well as Down syndrome and CP? Do you mean that leukemia is accurate and well design?
Tell me what proof do you have that DNA and human body is not a result of ever ending process of improvement?
So you think that brain cancer is well programmed feature by the God? As well as Down syndrome and CP? Do you mean that leukemia is accurate and well design?
I never said God is good. I never said God can't make mistakes either, I never said the system God created is perfect. I don't think it is meant to be perfect.
Tell me what proof do you have that DNA and human body is not a result of ever ending process of improvement?
Do you mean evolution? If you mean evolution, I have no intentions of disproving it because it is a well known fact.
Well you said we are "well programmed" and that DNA is "accurate and well designed".
Does it not mean than that you consider bone cancer to be well programmed as well since cancer cells are also our human cells, it is just that they are not what we really need; but they come from our own "well programmed" DNA.
Do you mean evolution? If you mean evolution, I have no intentions of disproving it because it is a well known fact.
If evolution is a well known fact, I suppose you accept it. It means than that our well programmed human cells as you call them, where much simpler long long long time ago and than got more complicated over the time. Why would they than change and evolve if they were so well programmed? Or do you mean that god just creted dust and than everything we are evolved from the dust? What if dinasaurus survived, and no humans or other mamals ever developed? What is so well about human cells?
Well you said we are "well programmed" and that DNA is "accurate and well designed".
Does it not mean than that you consider bone cancer to be well programmed as well
Why do you assume that?
Imagine I made a beautiful shirt, that was perfect in every way.
Then I made some people make several copies of the same shirt, to sell to people.
Now some of the copies weren't exactly alike. Maybe some shirts had holes in them, others were discolored, or whatever you can come up with.
Just because some shirts were flawed, does that make the original design flawed and imperfect?
Why would they than change and evolve if they were so well programmed?
I believe a God of some kind made it happen:) I don't have proof of this, this is my personal theory of what happened. Because I just can not accept that everything came from nothing - that is magic to me.
There is big difference in DNA reproducing itself out of God design, since according to your belief God created even process of reproduction and thus, since his creations are perfect, even that process is perfect. It implies that DNA can copy itself only perfectly, with no flaws, so even brain cancer is thus perfect creation.
You analogy with shirt breaks since a new copy of the shirt is new creation and involves same process from the beginning (a man in the middle, which can be you or somebody else), whereas DNA reproduction does not. Shirts does not reproduce themselves, each and every copy is created a new by a creator (you). So either cancer, and all other diseases, are a part of perfect creation and thus are "perfect and well programmed" as you claim, or your creators creation has flaw and thus is not perfect.
You subjective refusal to believe something or acceptance of something is not proof of anything. The point is if there was a creator and his creation is perfect it would not change and evolve. If you accept evolution as a fact, as you did, than the logical consequence is that creation was not perfect since it evolved into more complex forms.
I understand you can not accept claim that everything came from nothing. Actually I don't think there is need for such claim either. Can you accept that mater and energy has always existed? Never created, never destroyed. Is is pretty much like a concept of God but without a God actually.
I don't understand how can you not ask yourself what created god otherwise :).
You analogy with shirt breaks since a new copy of the shirt is new creation and involves same process from the beginning (a man in the middle, which can be you or somebody else), whereas DNA reproduction does not. Shirts does not reproduce themselves, each and every copy is created a new by a creator (you). So either cancer, and all other diseases, are a part of perfect creation and thus are "perfect and well programmed" as you claim, or your creators creation has flaw and thus is not perfect.
English is not my first language, there is a word I'm looking for that I can't seem to find in my head :)
But I am going to try to explain what I mean.
Inside a sell there is another thing, called something I don't know, where the copying of the DNA takes place.
This is not something I believe, this is a fact - DNA's are being copied, not created again.
You subjective refusal to believe something or acceptance of something is not proof of anything.
I know that, I never tried to prove my belief.
The point is if there was a creator and his creation is perfect it would not change and evolve
Why?
creation was not perfect since it evolved into more complex forms.
Let's take the shirt again.
Shirts don't just .. appear. You make them. There is a process you'll have to go through in order to make them. First they are just useless fabric, then you use that fabric to make the shirt.
The fabric itself is not a perfect shirt in any way - but it can make a perfect shirt.
Can you accept that mater and energy has always existed?
Can you accept that mater and energy has always existed? Never created, never destroyed. Is is pretty much like a concept of God but without a God actually.
I don't belong to a religion. I'm not christian, I'm not jewish.
I just believe something created our world. What it is I have no opinion on.
I don't understand how can you not ask yourself what created god otherwise :).
Whatever you believe, there has to be something that was everlasting. No matter if you're atheistic or religious, the entire thing has to start with something. So no matter what you believe, you will have to ask yourself, but .. what created that thing Get what I mean?
I'm not saying atheists are wrong, I'm just saying that theory doesn't make sense to me. And I never tried to convince you to believe anything. I think we could all have our own theories on what happens without making others believe it.
I just can not accept that everything came from nothing - that is magic to me. Isn't it pure magic if some superpower created the world out of nothing? Why would it be less magic if some whichcraft created the world out of nothing, than if universe just exist as an ethernal entity?
But it is not creepy to you that DNA and cells are reproducing themselves? :-)
Well, creepy or not, it does not matter what your liking of the idea is; the point is that your argument is false and your analogy make no sense; you are comparing apples and oranges.
Furthermore, if something makes sense to you, you should be able to know why does it make sense.
But it is not creepy to you that DNA and cells are reproducing themselves? :-)
Yes it is, don't you think it's creepy that things just magically reproduce themselves.
Well, creepy or not, it does not matter what your liking of the idea is; the point is that your argument is false and your analogy make no sense; you are comparing apples and oranges.
What part of my argument is false?
My analogy is that I believe there is a God - I don't know why this makes less sense then there is no God.
Furthermore, if something makes sense to you, you should be able to know why does it make sense.
I know why.
I think things that magically appear is called magic - not science.
Yes it is, don't you think it's creepy that things just magically reproduce themselves. No I don't; it is called life.
What part of my argument is false? Why do I have to repeat what I wrote above? I wrote 2 posts above why is you shirt analogy false. Your analogy with shirt is false. It leads to conclusion that cancer is gods creation and thus perfect, but we know that cancer is ill-reproduced human cells because of imperfections in DNA.
I think things that magically appear is called magic - not science. So god creating universe out of nothing is magic and it does not make sense? I agree with you. Instead you could realize that universe has always existed, by default, as a tautologi and than it does not have to appear out of nothing as a magic.
Why can't God create something imperfect? Why do you assume everything God makes is perfect?
but we know that cancer is ill-reproduced human cells because of imperfections in DNA.
Which proves my shirt analogy.
You reproduce something, and the reproduction is imperfect. Just because the reproduction is imperfect doesn't mean the original production is imperfect.
You agree that all cells are individual cells, right? So just because my cells are defected, does that mean yours are too?
No, each and every cell is an individual cell, a reproduction of the original thing. And the reproduction of that original cell can be defected, thus is that defected particular cell imperfect, not all cells.
If I have diabetes, does that mean because you are a fellow human being, you too have diabetes? No, we are two separate people with separate bodies and separate cells.
Instead you could realize that universe has always existed
You sound like you say your theory is absolutely true. Why do you want me to realize something you can't prove?
I say that life creates life. It happeneds every day man - it is called births!
Why can't God create something imperfect? Why do you assume everything God makes is perfect?For the Christ man, these are your words:
Just look at the human body, how well programmed it is, look inside a human cell, watch the DNA and how accurate and well designed it is.
It is you who says gods creations are well programmet and well designed. Thats your words, not mine!
Which proves my shirt analogy.
It does not; your shirt analogy is just bisarre exampel of a person who obviously has seen that argument somewhere and bought it naively and can't go beyond just repeating it blindly.
No it is not appropriate analogy, because according to you God would create each and every of human cells over and over and over again from the blueprint which we know does not happen. At least I am created by my parents, but maybe you are made in a laboratory who knows.
Your shirt analogy would imply that god sits all days long and prints humans, animals, rocks, trees, planets and everything else each and every day and sometimes he fucks up since some are born with 6 fingers, but its ok according ot your theory, because everybody can make misstake; even allmighty god that created everything :-). Poop.
If I have diabetes, does that mean because you are a fellow human being, you too have diabetes? No, we are two separate people with separate bodies and separate cells. Yes, we are different; but according to you god made one man and one woman and everybody else is just a blueprint which itself says against your theory of good blueprinting since there are no two 100% identical human beings.
You sound like you say your theory is absolutely true. Why do you want me to realize something you can't prove? Because it makes more sense than your ID poop and it would certainly be better world without religious fanatics.
Just look at the human body, how well programmed it is, look inside a human cell, watch the DNA and how accurate and well designed it is.
I am a woman, thank you.
I said it is well programmed, accurate and well designed. Is that necessarily perfect?
It does not; your shirt analogy is just bisarre exampel of a person who obviously has seen that argument somewhere and bought it naively and can't go beyond just repeating it blindly.
Where have you seen that argument before?
No it is not appropriate analogy, because according to you God would create each and every of human cells over and over and over again from the blueprint which we know does not happen. At least I am created by my parents, but maybe you are made in a laboratory who knows.
Cells reproduce, not produce.
Your shirt analogy would imply that god sits all days long and prints humans, animals, rocks, trees, planets and everything else each and every day and sometimes he fucks up since some are born with 6 fingers, but its ok according ot your theory, because everybody can make misstake; even allmighty god that created everything
Then you have misunderstood my analogy. I said God created one original thing, those things reproduce themselves, and those things can make an imperfect or defect copy.
it would certainly be better world without religious fanatics.
I am not a fanatic. I have never said my theory is the absolute truth. I have never said everyone should believe what I believe. Go throw that on somebody's elses face, thank you.
Because it makes more sense than your ID poop
Oh.. I see. Now it all makes sense. My opinion is wrong, because your opinion makes more sense to you.
Sorry dude, the world doesn't work that way. That's bad debating :)
That's like saying apples tastes better than oranges, because you think so.
I am a woman, thank you. Am I suppose to know that from the text on the screen? :-)
I said it is well programmed, accurate and well designed. Is that necessarily perfect? Do you mean that "well programmed, accurate and well designed" means: defect, catastrophes, desease and so on? What argument at all do you have that world is "well programed, accurate and well designed"? Your own biased crativistic poop you read in scientology papers or jehovas propaganda?
Where have you seen that argument before? In your posting!!!!!!!!! Are you having sudden case of demens?
No it is not appropriate analogy, because according to you God would create each and every of human cells over and over and over again from the blueprint which we know does not happen. At least I am created by my parents, but maybe you are made in a laboratory who knows.
Cells reproduce, not produce.
And your point by stating the obiouvs is?
Then you have misunderstood my analogy. I said God created one original thing, those things reproduce themselves, and those things can make an imperfect or defect copy. No, in your analogy you have claimed thta god like you, a shirtmaker, is making copies out of original over and over again. Those things reproduce themselves, and also evolve and change over the time, and that is why your analogy is wrong and false. I am glad I have at least teached you that cells are reproducing themselves and it is not god that blueprints them each and every day as you have claimed.
I am not a fanatic. yes you are.
Because it makes more sense than your ID poop
Oh.. I see. Now it all makes sense. My opinion is wrong, because your opinion makes more sense to you.
Sorry dude, the world doesn't work that way. That's bad debating :)
That's like saying apples tastes better than oranges, because you think so.
My opinion makes more sense to me than yours yes, otherwise I wouldn't be debating :-). You are wrong about your analogy, and you oviously can't take it and are just repeating, cutting things out and turning stuff upside down because you have nothing more to say. That makes you a pooper :-). Start staying behind what you said and try to defend it with argument or admit you took a bad example and try something else if you ain't a pooper.
Bad debating is not being able to argue more than one level as you obiously are not able; and also not being able to accept when you have false argument. By the way, you will never have argument you can defend simply because you are defending what is undefendable. God does not exist and religion is just poop for utterly illiterate brains. It is poor mans religion, for people who can't think for themselves or don't want to think for themselves.
No it is not like saying apples tastes better than oranges :-). Nice try, but it is more like saying, smoking and alcohol are bad for you and you are saying, no they are not because I like it.
Am I suppose to know that from the text on the screen? :-)
No, that's why I informed you that I was a woman.
What argument at all do you have that world is "well programed, accurate and well designed"?
The eye itself has 1 chance in 50.000 to be what it is. If there is one different thing about the eye, it doesn't work.
No man has succeeded in making a machine as well programmed as the human being.
Where have you seen that argument before? In your posting!!!!!!!!! Are you having sudden case of demens?
I thought you accused me of using arguments based on things I read. That is not true, but if you didn't accuse me of doing so then let's move on.
And your point by stating the obiouvs is?
I can't remember, it's been a while since I debated with you, sorry.
I think it was something about that when a cell reproduces itself, the reproduction of that can be defect, that doesn't mean that the cell it was reproduced from is defect.
Two people can have a child with a disorder or disability - does that mean the parents are disable too, or have the disability themselves? No.
Some reproductions can be defect, that doesn't change the perfection of the original design.
But if life created life, what created the first life?I firmly believe that life can become under certain circumstances on its own because of the physics law and interaction between particles.
But even if I don't know how first life on Earth become, it still does not proof there is God.
Religion has always been used to fill knowledge gaps, and this is exactly what happeneds now in your argumentation. Just because we can not explain something at the moment, it does not mean we will not be able in the future. Maybe not today or in a month or year, but maybe in thousand, or 10 000 years, it does not matter. You can see that was trend during the whole human history. It is just sad to see thare are still humans that believe Earth is not round.
:) ok. So what is the point than of talking about well-programmed cells and your beliefs and getting into the debate if you don't feel to prove anything. Debate is about proofing one stand or another.
Well, someone on the other side said God almost undoubtily does not exist. This is a very wrong assumption to make, because there is just as much chance that he does exist, than that he doesn't.
You disputed my argument with a total different thing, asking me about my belief - I answered.
Well, someone on the other side said God almost undoubtily does not exist. This is a very wrong assumption to make, because there is just as much chance that he does exist, than that he doesn't.
Why? What proof do you have? No it is not the fact that you can't give physic eveidence that god exist or not exist that makes it equally big chance. Do you have any other argument why is that wrong other than yhour subjective belief.
You disputed my argument with a total different thing, asking me about my belief - I answered. No I didn't. You took up that about our cells being so well programmed, and I just disputed that claim, since it was clearly wrong. Unless you accept that all anomalies that our cell exhibit are also part of "well programmed" in your claim. But in that case it wouldn't be anomaly.
You should ask the other guy, who said that. What proof does he have to make such a statement? God probably doesn't exist, but does he undoubtily not exist? No.
No I didn't. You took up that about our cells being so well programmed, and I just disputed that claim, since it was clearly wrong. Unless you accept that all anomalies that our cell exhibit are also part of "well programmed" in your claim. But in that case it wouldn't be anomaly.
Because it is true.
Everything in works so well together.. everything just works and it is weird that it does.
So after all this discussion only think you can come up with is you original claim that everything is so well :-).
Everything in works so well together.. everything just works and it is weird that it does.
So you DO mean that brain cancer is something that God intended for our cells to develop and it is working well for those poor people that die in agony and pain of damaged brain cells? According to you it is well working when a child 6 years old develop brain cancer and die?
Maybe you should develop one and experience your intelligent designers great work. It is probably the purpose you got a brain for, since you don't seem to use it for other purposes such as logical thinking.
It is incredible how people can be irrational and stupid despite all the science and knowledge on their disposal. Isn't it? Probably because biologically we are still same as cave people from 30 000 yeras ago and some even refuse to update their knowledge as well.
So after all this discussion only think you can come up with is you original claim that everything is so well :-).
Yes, things are good, don't be such a pessimist. Yes disease, sickness, death, war and I could go on exist. But there is good too.
And don't throw the cancer thing back at me - don't judge people who try to see some good in this world. Thank goodness some of the people here actually can see the benefits of life, instead of the bad stuff that it contains.
If there weren't bad things, we couldn't enjoy the good.
I am not irrational, I am human. I have no chance of escaping from the bad, so why not just try to see the good? You should try it some time.
What makes you think that I am not seeing good? If say the background of this page is white, does it mean I deny there exists black backgrounds? Your logic is very limited and naive.
So you mean that a 6 year old children should die in brain cancer, so that YOU can see the good? Is that what you mean with your rethorics?
Yes, things are good, don't be such a pessimist. Yes disease, sickness, death, war and I could go on exist. But there is good too.
Why do you believe I am a pessimist? :-) I am actually very happy and glad person; I am just showing you that world is not very "well programmed" place as you are arguing which implies that your theory about "intelligent creator" is false. You obviously have no argument to come up with but assumptions and your subjective claims in style "oh what a wonderful world". Even war, disease and sickness are wonderfull than? The point is that your assumption: world is so well programmed and this is sign of intelligent design is false and meaningless.
I disagree, the human is the most well programmed thing we know of. :-)
Its just your wish. What proof do you have that "The human" is programmed at all? What proof do you have that "the human" is "the most well programmed thing we know of"? You are just babbeling creativistic poop without even reflecting on it. Oooo "the human being is fantastic!" ... "thu utter proof that God created the universe" ... "ooooo ... hallelujah" ...
No, we are just animals like any other mamals. Why would human be more "well programmed than a monkey?". At least you don't seem to give a proof of more "advanced programming". Or you mean you are just a proof of imperfections in copying? :-)
Your side is theism yet you say God is not good? It is clearly mentioned in the Bible that God is good. Luke 18:19 - "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good - Except God alone). And God does not make mistakes. He is perfect. A perfect being does not make "mistakes". Also, I hope you are talking about micro-evolution and not macro-evolution, because macro-evolution has no proof.
God is real. If not, how were we created? How were our ancestors created? How were the forests, seas and skies created? God created the heavens and the earth. He created the universe where all the planets are created. In the Bible's first chapter, it explains how everything was made and how our world developed.
God is proved by Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics states that before the universe, there were quantum fluctuations occurring all over the place. The Big Bang was most likely a massive quantum fluctuation that became self-sustaining, but to become self-sustaining external forces would have to aid it so that it could become powerful enough. Since no other matter existed, God is the only explanation. A quantum fluctuation expands quickly if it becomes self-sustaining, and since time was not invented yet it probably seemed like a huge very fast explosion. There is more but that is all for now.
I disagree. Because they base their authority on senses and reasoning which are fallible and can't be tested empirically. The Bible is infallible and is the basis for knowledge and understanding, therefore it is more reliable then what they use to argue.
How might we prove that God is imaginary? One way would be to find a contradiction between the definition of God and the God we experience in the real world.
What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:
Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.
Will anything happen? No. Of course not.
This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.
If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.
In Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref]
Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.
We see the same thing over and over again...
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.
In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.
Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.
And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying. What Jesus says is clearly incorrect.
god has to be a part of creation if god does exist.i think creation is the most powerful force around.i say the created god changes with the continuing evolution of creation.in other words the created god of 2013 is a different form of creation than the created god of say pre history.in 1000 years time the created god will be different again.
The statistics you presented on prayers coming through is simply nonsense. I'm sure the stats doesn't cover that there are many prayers not answered until many years after they are said. What if the 30% percent fall into that category? If you read the Bible, you will find that many times people waited for for years before receiving an answer.
"Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying."
Jesus was speaking directly to his apostles when he told them that the prayer of faith would accomplish anything they set their mind to. And it so happened that all the great miracles recorded in "the Acts of the Apostles" were fulfillment of those things Jesus had promised.
When Jesus said that anything asked in his name would be granted, he was telling the truth in that many outstanding results have been accomplished in the name of Jesus, since the apostles have passed away. There are many accounts of miracles happening after the apostles in St. Augustine's City of God. There have been many other miracles established since then in the name of Jesus, up to modern day, some of which I have personally witnessed. But since your fond of calling people liars to further your "hardness of heart," you will also say that I'm lying.
Jesus didn't mean that we had an unlimited wish-list. There is a text in James that addresses those who don't receive answers to their prayers: those who pray amiss, missing the will and purpose of God. You see many pray for stones to turn into bread instead of understanding why Jesus didn't do so, even though he had the power to.
Prayers are most powerful when they are humble and to better others. When we seek the kingdom of God first in our praying our prayers are more readily answered.
Speak for yourself when you say that prayers don't work, because prayers have always worked for me.
World has always existed, it is worlds nature. Man was created by same force as all other living beings, both animals and plants and anything else that has dna in itself.
The universe has not always existed, this has been scientifically proven. The universe is slowly shrinking, dying out, contracting, etc. The point is, it will come to an end.
Think of it this way: A flashlight has batteries, energy, right? Let's say the flashlight is on. The flashlight is slowly dying out and growing less bright. It can not have been on since the beginning of time. (Ignoring the fact that flashlights had not been invented yet. This is purely hypothetical.) If it had, it would have already run out of energy. Just like how the universe is slowly dying out, and running out of energy.
If the universe was eternal, it would have died out by now. But since the universe is not eternal, it still has life left and is using it up until, undeniably, it will come to a definite end.
I'm hoping you saw where I was going with this. Explanation is not my strong suit.
The proof that the Christian God exists is simple.
First, nobody needs proof because Romans 1 says all know and are without excuse, those who call themselves 'atheists' do know there is a God, they just hate him and his laws.
The Proof is:
Major premise: Without God, you could not know anything
Minor premise: You know things
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists.
Support for Major premise: There are only two ways to know anything, absolute knowledge or revelation from one with absolute knowledge. Because if you did not have absolute knowledge, something you don't know could contradict what you think you know, therefore those without absolute knowledge cannot know anything.
To be all knowing is to be God. God is then only one who knows all things.
Therefore, to know anything, you would have to have revelation from God.
Support for Minor premise: You know things. The funny thing about atheists is that everytime they open their mouth they utter a knowledge claim. Yet, as I have just proved, if there is no God no one can know anything. Any argument an atheist presents relies upon the existence of knowledge and logic, both un-accounted for in an atheistic worldview. Even to say "I don't know anything" is to make a knowledge claim. A common rebuttal is "I don't know anything, but neither do you!" it doesn't take long to see the flawed logic in that statement, for if you don't know anything, how do you know what I know?
The logical conclusion is that, because without God you could not know anything and you know things, God exists. And each vote for the atheists side can be counted as a vote for the Theism side because each of those arguments prove God exists.
Repent and put your trust in Christ alone. You love you sin and that is why you call yourself an atheist. You don't want there to be a God so you can do whatever you want with no eternal consequence, but you know he exists, you do not need this proof, and if you don't trust in Christ's blood to pay for your sins you will pay for them for eternity.
For more information in this argument, go to proofthatgodexists.org
You used the Bible as your source. Not very efficient, considering that your opponents don't even believe in it.
If God existed before us humans, then why wasn't the Bible written at the very beginning of humankind? Please don't say something like:
"Because the humans then weren't developed enough yet." My response: I thought God was supposed to be all-powerful. Wouldn't he have made the first humans perfect at once?
"Because God wanted us (people who lived "after the Bible was written") to be the ones to believe in him." My response: Doesn't your Bible say something about God 'loving all his children?' Or something like that.
~~~~~~~
Also, you said: " You love you sin and that is why you call yourself an atheist. You don't want there to be a God so you can do whatever you want with no eternal consequence, but you know he exists, you do not need this proof, and if you don't trust in Christ's blood to pay for your sins you will pay for them for eternity."
Well, that was interesting. And outrageous.
You're saying that anyone who doesn't believe the same things as you are evil beings. Thanks a lot.
If this were true, then all atheists would be murdering and stealing and destroying the world by now. That hasn't happened.
A lot of wars have been fought because of religion.
Lastly, do really think God would approve of the ways the Native Americans were treated when the Christians came to the New World? I hardly think he'd support whipping and beating and yelling.
The bible may seem very illogical, however if you look at science. For example Solid matter, you may or may not begin to realize the confusion of what makes Solid matter solid, you may say solid matter is solid because the particles are solid, but what makes the particles solid? You could say forces make particles solid, but what gives forces this ability?
So you can come to the conclusion that God creates the rules of the universe(including what gives forces the ability), you could in fact argue that there could be other rules that the universe would have followed perfectly, and that he can do anything. The question is what is God? God might not be psychical, and that he is a being who has no limit's to what he can do. In fact you could say, with God anything could be possible!
Christians have more doubt than everything added about their god,i have sold stolen goods to them,where a muslim has walked away,but they have all their doubt in themselves cause they know they arent good.christians living a good just life so they must make up for it by preaching their filthy diahrea up all our asses and they just cannot concept that 1 plus 1 equals 2,but bash it in at a young age/spastic(if of age)and teach them that 1 plus 1 equals 1million miracles,now FUCKOFF
William Lane Craig (PhD and Professor) had said that empty space is not nothing. A void (or empty space) is still space, even though empty. It is still a dimension. Now a dimensionless state is nothing, empty space is something. According to Scotus Dun’s (Oxford graduate and scholar) argument of causes and effects there has to be a cause for an effect. An endless amount of causes (like the universe always existing) is impossible. In ancient Greece there was once a god named “chaos”, which literally was nothing. But they treated it as a god (or a supreme being) because it led to the creation of the other gods. Now scientifically, the universe happened when “nothing” began to vibrate and created a void, and continued vibrating until a small microscopic particle called the Higgs Boson (aka “the God particle”or particle that gives everything mass) exploded and created the expansion of the universe which led to the creation of 9 dimensions. 8 spatial and 1 temporal. Which led to mass but technically did not create mass because mass is positive and gravity is negative. So the total amount of mass and gravity equals out to zero, so it still follows the law of conservation of mass. Keep in mind before the big bang, time (the temporal dimension), did not exist. And after the big bang height, width, and depth were created, as well as time, which were 4 of the said dimensions. So as the universe expanded it created atoms which eventually fused and created suns and planets. One of which planet was earth. And the first life forms arose (cyanobacteria); which later led to humans. Now genetically all humans can be traced back to one male and one female, and in the book of Genesis the first humans were one male (Adam) and one female (eve). And the Dead Sea scrolls do not rule out evolution. In fact they support it. In the book of Enoch it describes Giant’s that walked the earth before and alongside humans, which supports fossil evidence of human evolution. Now explain to me how 5,000 years before genetic testing people knew that humanity started with one male and one female. Also describe how the Greeks would know about the vibration that led to the creation of the universe, even naming it, before modern science. And finally how can you explain how “nothing” can vibrate and lead to the something before TIME even existed? There scientifically had to have been someone to create that effect, because an effect can’t happen without a cause, it’s scientifically impossible. Plus the laws such as conservation of mass and physics are organized, and the Universe is spontaneous, and scientifically only intelligent life can set laws. Like Isaac Newton and John Scotus Duns both said that no cause can happen without an effect, and “every action has an equal and opposite reaction” sounds familiar doesn't it? Because without a cause there can be no effect, and there can be no endless amount of causes. How can you say that the universe created itself? Not only does that go against John Scotus Duns argument, Isaac Newton’s laws of motion, but even Einstein ruled out Atheism. Something will not and has not ever been created from nothing.
An explosion destroys not create! how can the big bang cause a world to create? Especially if you think of one individual human being, to create such a sophisticated creature, the brain alone should make you wonder how all of a sudden it appeared to be! even atheists know that there has to be a god, it`s just that if you admit it, then all of a sudden there instructions of god to follow,the holy bible. Tell an atheist to tell her mother in her death bed that she should go to hell, this cannot happen because inside of every ones heart they know the truth. it`s just that they are afraid to admit it.
If you blow up a rock face, yes it destroys it, but it also CREATES new smaller rocks.
I admit this does not explain how something exploded from nothing, but neither does god!
Did he just suddenly appear!?
You must be pretty stupid if you think atheists believe a brain was instantly created from nothing.
We believe that matter slowly (over millions/billions of years) created things & that these creations slowly adapted to be more effective.
"All atheists know there must be a God"
What!?
Do you know what atheism is!?
Once my parents (who are Christian) told me "If we are wrong, we don't lose anything because we will just die & that will be it. But if you're wrong, you lose everything, so why not believe?"
That got me thinking, most religious people are religious because they need a sort of 'safety net' around their life.
Religious person has a difficult situation-they pray.
Atheist has the same difficult situation-They solve it.
Us Atheists do not need someone else ruling our life just so we don't feel 'alone'.
"If you blow up a rock face, yes it destroys it, but it also CREATES new smaller rocks.
I admit this does not explain how something exploded from nothing, but neither does god!
Did he just suddenly appear!?"
God created our concept of "time." He is outside of time, therefore the laws of time do not apply to him. He is immutable (does not change) does not age, and does not have a beginning or an end, as those things only apply to something inside of time. Things inside of time must have a beginning, must age and grow, change, dissolve, decrease, and decay. Energy alone cannot sustain itself; it can only deplete and over a period of Time, and eventually run out. Energy INSIDE of time must have a source. It cannot increase itself without an external source, it only can decrease. There must be a self-sustaining "well" of energy that continues to supply the Universe, otherwise everything would have already brought about it's own destruction, or depletion. Therefore, the only logical and reasonable explanation is an external, self-sustaining energy source that exists OUTSIDE of time.
"You must be pretty stupid if you think atheists believe a brain was instantly created from nothing. "
You have made a very good point. An excellent one, perfectly logical and reasonable, and you are right. A brain cannot be instantly created from nothing. I hate to have to turn this around on you, but actually by saying that you are contradicting the entire Atheist argument. You say that a brain cannot be created from nothing, yet you will argue and say that a single particle of matter somehow appeared from nothing and then proceeded to evolve over billions of years into... Trees, stars, oceans, animals... humans... (hence billions of brains)... and all out of a single particle of matter which came from.......... what?
"We believe that matter slowly (over millions/billions of years) created things & that these creations slowly adapted to be more effective."
Use your logic, just for a moment! Take it back to the beginning to this matter that you say started it all. (Let's call this matter "M+") Where did M+ come from? Are you saying that M+ did not have a creator? That M+ has always existed? (Which strangely sounds like the argument for God) Or are you saying that M+ jumped into existence out of absolutely nothing, out of no pre-existing material? (which contradicts science in every way)
There are only three arguments to debate on that issue.
1) Matter has always existed
2) Matter jumped into existence with no outside source
3) Matter was created by an external source
1) -If you say matter (M+ for the purpose of this statement) has always existed, I would say that theory is only possible if M+ is outside of time and does not need a creator, which would not make sense because you say the matter "evolved" and if this were true, anything that it evolved into would be outside of time as well, meaning you and I and animals and the Earth would not age or decay. The mere fact that we age and decay is proof that we are inside of time. And that also does not explain where physical laws like gravity and time itself came from.
2) --If you say that M+ jumped into existence out of nothing, then I would tell you that you are contradicting science itself, and there would no more point in discussing the theory. You and I and any other logical thinker both know that is not possible. The same goes for any other theory. Saying that chemicals mixed together and created the matter, I would make the same argument, asking where the chemicals came from, etc. I believe it all boils down to an Uncaused Causer.
3) --If you agree with science and say that the matter has to have an external cause in order to exist, then I would simply concede my argument and my case for God would have been made. God exists outside of time, God CREATED time and is not governed BY time, and He created everything that exists INSIDE of time. The Uncaused Causer, so-to-speak.
"...most religious people are religious because they need a sort of 'safety net' around their life."
What is interesting about your statement here is that for the most part, you are right. Religion, as defined by man's attempt to be equal to God through rituals and traditions and good deeds, (hate to step on anyone's toes) is corny and faulty, and any smart person (Atheist, Theist, Agnostic, whatever...) can see right through it. I consider myself a Christian, but I recognize that the typical Christian (99% actually) is religious and usually hypocritical. However do not equate hypocritical religion with the belief IN God. The simple belief that God exists is not religion; it is science, logic and reason. Religion is driven by emotion, pride, and greed, whether people want to admit it or not. You can be Christian and be led into religion without even knowing it. I understand you have met so many hypocritical, religious theists, but be careful not to label EVERY single person who believes in the existence of God under the same label as "hypocritical" and "religious."
"Religious person has a difficult situation-they pray.
Atheist has the same difficult situation-They solve it."
I, taking my stance as a non-religious, Bible-believing Christian, believe that God exists, that He is perfect, and that he loves us. (If you want to discuss this I would be happy to, but on a different debate...) He hates the problems in our lives and the fact that we go through so much pain. It hurts him to see how much pain we go through, but he will not mess with free will and make us like robots, to do whatever he wants, as that would corrupt His perfection and make him imperfect. The fact that we have free will means that we have a choice whether or not to believe in Him. He leaves that up to us. He gives us as much evidence as possible, so that we can figure out on our own that He exists just by using the tools he gave us in our minds, the tools of Logic and Reason.
Because of our free will, we as humanity disobey God all the time. This disobedience is called "sin." We "sin" all the time, starting with Adam and Eve. Because God is perfect, part of His perfection is Justice. He must see that injustice is punished and justice is done, otherwise He would be corrupt. We have sinned, done wrong, and therefore have to be punished rightfully by just action. He is perfect and therefore has the right to judge us. He created a place called hell that is basically like a prison, a jail for the unjust. It is our punishment for our sin, and we deserve it. However God HATES to see us punished no matter what we've done because He loves us, and so because of His love He created a way that we could escape that punishment. He took a part of Himself, His son, and sent His son to die as a sacrifice in our place. That son was called Jesus Christ. Jesus set aside His divine attributes for a while and was born on Earth, and lived a perfect, sinless life. God had nothing to punish Him for, so when Jesus was crucified, God saw Him as a replacement for us, and God punished Jesus instead of us for our sin. Every sin that we ever would commit, God punished Jesus for it. Jesus finally died after God punished Him on the cross that He was nailed to, and then Jesus after three days in the tomb was resurrected, and defeated death and hell. Now, because of that, God is able to forgive us based on Jesus' sacrifice, and we don't have to go to hell and be punished; instead we can live with God in the place that He is designing for us as a blessing after we die. We now can have hope, and God can't wait to give us an awesome place in Heaven after death.
All of this is simple: If you accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice, and believe that He died in your place, you receive forgiveness and don't have to worry about punishment anymore. All it takes is for you to believe it and accept it as truth.
This is not religion, because God does not require you to go to church, go through any rituals, live a good life, or even be moral to be forgiven. And that is where the confusion lies in the world today. People think they have to do something to get heaven, and they become prideful and arrogant much of the time. It's all just confusion of the truth.
Just use the tools of Logic and Reason to study all of these things that I have told you, and see if they don't make sense! Have an open mind, study translations of the Bible and see what it originally was meant to say as opposed to the translations in English. You will find it does not contradict itself. Study the life of Jesus, even using non-Biblical texts. Philosophers (Atheist and Theist alike) will admit to the life and death of Jesus. The empty tomb after He was resurrected has never been refuted, and if He was resurrected, that means He was who He said He was and that you can have faith in Him. Do all of this without bias and pre-conceived notions!
"Us Atheists do not need someone else ruling our life just so we don't feel 'alone'."
The question is not if you FEEL alone, it is whether or not you ARE alone. If God does not exist, there is no reason to be moral, to live with standards, regardless of how you feel. But that also means there is no hope. If you're wrong, God exists, and you have purpose and there is a meaning to life that you haven't discovered yet. I know where I am going when I die; I have hope, because I know there is purpose to life and this one is not the end. I can't explain it or prove it personally to you, you just have to experience it for yourself.
I know where I am going, and I have a reason to have hope. Can you say the same?
[…] You say that a brain cannot be created from nothing, yet you will argue and say that a single particle of matter somehow appeared from nothing and then proceeded to evolve over billions of years […] and all out of a single particle of matter which came from […] what? & […] The Uncaused Causer, so-to-speak.
The problem with your reasoning is that you treat an absence of definitive knowledge as to the origins of the universe as evidence of the proof of God. This does not follow.
[..] I consider myself a Christian, but I recognize that the typical Christian (99% actually) is religious and usually hypocritical. However do not equate hypocritical religion with the belief IN God. […] be careful not to label EVERY single person who believes in the existence of God under the same label as "hypocritical" and "religious."
The accusation is not one of hypocrisy, but of insecurity. Theism is the human response to an aversion to the unknown; it is an emotional convenience that sidesteps the fear of uncertainty.
[…] It hurts him to see how much pain we go through, but he will not mess with free will and make us like robots, to do whatever he wants, as that would corrupt His perfection and make him imperfect. The fact that we have free will means that we have a choice whether or not to believe in Him. […] Because of our free will, we as humanity disobey God all the time. This disobedience is called "sin." […]
There is much you assert and presume, but I shall focus on this: The ultimate premise of your argument is the presumption of free will, yet you never actually substantiate that presumption. I will begin to lend your argument credibility only when you have demonstrated that free will is more probabilistically true than not.
What would follow from there is an expectation that you similarly substantiate each of the rest of your multitude of other assumptions (e.g. God loves us, God is perfect, etc.).
Just use the tools of Logic and Reason to study all of these things that I have told you, and see if they don't make sense!
Logic and reason preclude presumptuous conclusions; your ideas are filled with them.
Do all of this without bias and pre-conceived notions!
Your entire argument is premised upon biased, pre-conceived notions. When one assumes a neutral ground your conclusions do not follow from what you have presented.
The question is not if you FEEL alone, it is whether or not you ARE alone. If God does not exist, there is no reason to be moral, to live with standards, regardless of how you feel. But that also means there is no hope.
God is not requisite to morality; most atheists possess moral intuition absent theistic faith. Morality itself is not even a purely religious construction, but a byproduct of human evolution compelled by biology and social pressures; it is fundamentally a matter of emotional judgment projected onto ourselves and our surroundings. I personally reject morality as detrimental to reason and the pursuit of objective truth; I could go into this if you like, but suffice it to say that far from alarming me your argument of an amoral Godless universe is rather appealing.
I hold hope in similar disutility. I have found it not only unnecessary in my life, but a liability.
If you're wrong, God exists, and you have purpose and there is a meaning to life that you haven't discovered yet.
I do not feel any need for my life to have any purpose or meaning.
I know where I am going when I die; I have hope, because I know there is purpose to life and this one is not the end. I can't explain it or prove it personally to you, you just have to experience it for yourself.
Therein lies the crux of the matter: you cannot explain it or prove it. Consequentially, you do not know these things but believe them as result of the many presumptions you hold.
I know where I am going, and I have a reason to have hope. Can you say the same?
"There is much you assert and presume, but I shall focus on this: The ultimate premise of your argument is the presumption of free will, yet you never actually substantiate that presumption. I will begin to lend your argument credibility only when you have demonstrated that free will is more probabilistically true than not.
What would follow from there is an expectation that you similarly substantiate each of the rest of your multitude of other assumptions (e.g. God loves us, God is perfect, etc.)..."
Again, If you would like to discuss those concepts, let's open a different debate. I did not substantiate because the purpose of this argument is only to debate God's existence.
Again, If you would like to discuss those concepts, let's open a different debate. I did not substantiate because the purpose of this argument is only to debate God's existence.
Your argument that God exists is premised upon the existence of free will, making free will a topical subject in the debate on the existence of God. If you persist in the notion that free will is non-topical, then the implication is that it was not topical to begin with and you have not actually proven the existence of God.
Furthermore, you have utterly neglected the entirety of the rest of my rebuttal. Failure to do so again will indicate concession of the points concerned.
The morals we have are for the continuation of our civilization. The hope we have is that future generations will live better than we have. It is not us who has no hope. The concept of eternal afterlife should not be a prerequisite for doing good. I do not believe in God, heaven or Hell, yet, I do not lie, cheat, steal or murder. I do not do these things because I know them to be less than ideal when considering the future of the human race. I do not need the promise of an eternal paradise, nor the threat of eternal damnation to do what is right.
if you don't want a "safety net' that is your problem. and the explosion argument is stupid
and also then can the atheist please explain then the conscience? or maybe abstract feelings. because i am pretty sure those aren't natural or come from anything material, and it certainly doesn't take millions of years either.
and god doesn't rule our life we freely choose to do this
Don't you guys get tired of doing these debates? It's like you need them to stroke your ego or something.
Far as a god or gods go, I'm not certain. But pretty sure Atheism isn't the right thing, as well. Mainly since I exist, and yes that is a total fallacy and I don't care if you call me on it.
There is a God for sure. The perfection of the things out here had to be created with an intelligent mind. No way a big bang made everything perfect and reasonably stable. "The Big Bang" started with one atom? The explosion from one Atom would only have enough force to create a nuclear explosion without not create a whole Universe with perfect life on Earth. You cannot disprove the existence of God. Ceasar only has 3 eyewitnesses of his Existence which then clarifies his existence but Jesus 18 eyewitnesses of his Existence and you still can't believe? Jesus had been proven to be the son of God. There is no good reason for Athiesm to be true. The proof of Jesus is the proof of God's existence. They definitely did not make up the stories of Jesus. All of the Canon(66 books in the Bible) agrees within its self. For example; Luke will give another perspective of Jesus in the same event as what Matthew wrote. Athiest say that the Gospels contradict each other but it actually appears to contradict each but it does not. Apparent contradictions are good to see from different eyewitnesses because if they said the same event exactly the same then it would appear that they set up a made up story. But you can put the perspectives of different eyewitnesses stories into one. Just like there can be 4 witnesses of a wonderful BBQ. One can talk about the grass, one can talk about the Chicken,one can talk about the salad, and one can talk about the fireworks. Each testimony may not talk about the same things about the BBQ nor have the same order but if you put all of the 4 testimonies together you will then get a full picture of the BBQ. They may even address what the other testimonies did address also but in a different way. Ok you get the point. The Bible is proven true through Archaeology and reason. God is proven true through the ressurection of his son Jesus. Prophecy proves the Bible to be true. Science and God agrees with each other. We dont agree with the Atheistic philosophy of science. If you come at the right approach then you will understand that science proves God. "There is no good reason for Athiesm to be true." William Lane Craig stated. I completely agree on that statement from Craig.
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV / 92 helpful votes
Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Revelation 4:11 ESV / 45 helpful votes
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”
Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 44 helpful votes
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
1 John 4:8 ESV / 40 helpful votes
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Romans 1:18-20 ESV / 39 helpful votes
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Colossians 1:15 ESV / 36 helpful votes
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
John 1:1-2 ESV / 30 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
Romans 1:21 ESV / 26 helpful votes
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
James 1:17 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
John 3:8 ESV / 20 helpful votes
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 1:18 ESV / 20 helpful votes
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Genesis 1:27 ESV / 18 helpful votes
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Psalm 90:2 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
1 Peter 3:18-22 ESV / 14 helpful votes
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
John 4:24 ESV / 13 helpful votes
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 3:16-17 ESV / 13 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Romans 1:18 ESV / 12 helpful votes
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Jeremiah 29:13 ESV / 12 helpful votes
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Psalm 19:1 ESV / 12 helpful votes
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
Romans 1:25 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Isaiah 40:26 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
Genesis 2:1-25 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
Genesis 1:1-31 ESV / 11 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Romans 1:28 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Job 38:4 ESV / 10 helpful votes
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Psalm 14:1-4 ESV / 9 helpful votes
To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the Lord?
John 6:55-59 ESV / 8 helpful votes
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
John 6:50-71 ESV / 8 helpful votes
This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 3:16 ESV / 8 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Isaiah 7:14 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
James 2:19 ESV / 7 helpful votes
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
John 14:21 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Mark 16:15-16 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 20:29 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:19-24 ESV / 6 helpful votes
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Psalm 13:5-6 ESV / 5 helpful votes
But I have trusted in your steadfast love; my heart shall rejoice in your salvation. I will sing to the Lord, because he has dealt bountifully with me.
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV / 5 helpful votes
The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy.
Romans 6:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 2:14 ESV / 4 helpful votes
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
John 3:5 ESV / 4 helpful votes
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 1:1 ESV / 4 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Luke 1:47-49 ESV / 4 helpful votes
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
Psalm 19:1-2 ESV / 4 helpful votes
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
Hebrews 12:6 ESV / 3 helpful votes
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Hebrews 9:22 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins
We do not need proof at all.
God does exist and I know because of this story.
Elijah on Mount Carmel
16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When he saw Elijah, he said to him, “Is that you, you troubler of Israel?”
18 “I have not made trouble for Israel,” Elijah replied. “But you and your father’s family have. You have abandoned the Lord’s commands and have followed the Baals. 19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”
20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”
But the people said nothing.
22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”
Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”
25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.
27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.
30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”
34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.
“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.
36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”
40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.
41 And Elijah said to Ahab, “Go, eat and drink, for there is the sound of a heavy rain.” 42 So Ahab went off to eat and drink, but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees.
43 “Go and look toward the sea,” he told his servant. And he went up and looked.
“There is nothing there,” he said.
Seven times Elijah said, “Go back.”
44 The seventh time the servant reported, “A cloud as small as a man’s hand is rising from the sea.”
So Elijah said, “Go and tell Ahab, ‘Hitch up your chariot and go down before the rain stops you.’”
45 Meanwhile, the sky grew black with clouds, the wind rose, a heavy rain started falling and Ahab rode off to Jezreel.
ALL HAIL GODDESS Artemis - for the PROOF of her existence is mighty... ;)
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Iliad):
•05.051 ...Artemis taught the Trojan, Skamandrios (Scamander), how to strike down all wild things in the mountain forest
•05.053 ...Artemis of the showering arrows could not help Skamandrios (Scamander) when he was killed at Troy
•05.447 ...Artemis and Leto heal Aineias (Aeneas)
•06.205 ...Glaukos (Glaucus) related the story of how Artemis killed Laodameia, the daughter of Bellerophontes (Bellerophon)
•06.427 ...Artemis killed Andromakhe’s (Andromache) mother after Akhilleus (Achilles) had released her for ransom
•09.532 ...Artemis, of the golden chair, was angered at Oineus (Oeneus) for neglecting her in sacrifice and sent a boar to ravage the countryside
•09.536 ...Artemis, the daughter of great Zeus, was denied the first fruits by Oineus (Oeneus)
•09.538 ...Artemis is called ‘Lady of Arrows’
•09.547 ...Artemis caused great anger when the boar was dead and the hunters argued over possession of the boar’s head
•16.183 ...Hermes fell in love with Polymele when he saw her dancing in the choir of clamorous Artemis
•19.059 ...Akhilleus (Achilles) wishes that Artemis had killed Briseis instead of letting her become a point of dissention between himself and Agamemnon
•20.040 ...Apollon, Artemis, Aphrodite, Leto and Xanthos (Xanthus) fought on the side of the Trojans
•20.071 ...Artemis of the showering arrows stood against Hera when the Immortals entered the battle for Troy
•21.470 ...Apollon’s sister, Artemis, scolds him for not fighting Poseidon
•21.472 ...Artemis refers to Apollon as ‘striker from afar’
•21.480 ...Hera says that Artemis is shameless and bold for daring to stand against her in battle
•21.491 ...Hera grabs Artemis and knocks the bow and arrows from her shoulder; Artemis flees in tears
•21.505 ...Artemis, the maiden, bowed at the feet of Zeus
•21.509 ...Zeus speaks to Artemis and asks which of the gods has shamed her
•21.511 ...Artemis answers Zeus and says that Hera hit her during the fighting at Troy
•24.604 ...Akhilleus (Achilles) tells Priam about how Apollon had killed Niobe’s sons and Artemis had killed her daughters
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Odyssey):
•05.123 ...Kalypso (Calypso) reminds Hermes how chaste Artemis had killed Orion with her painless arrows because he was the lover of Eos (Dawn)
•06.102 ...Nausikaa was dancing like Artemis
•06.107 ...Artemis dances with the nymphs in the mountains
•06.151 ...Odysseus compares Nausikaa with the goddess Artemis in beauty and stature
•11.172 ...Odysseus encounters the ghost of his mother, Antikleia (Anticleia), in the Underworld and asks her if she died of illness or by the painless arrows of Artemis
•11.324 ...Artemis killed Ariadne on the island if Dia when Dionysus testified against her
•15.410 ...Apollon and Artemis come to the island of Syria and kill the aged painlessly with silver arrows
•15.478 ...When the swineherd, Eumaios (Eumaeus), was a child, he was kidnapped by Phoenicians with the help of his wicked nurse; Artemis killed her because of her betrayal
•17.037 ...Penelope was as lovely as Artemis or golden Aphrodite
•18.202 ...Penelope wishes that chaste Artemis would give her the peace of death
•19.054 ...Penelope was as lovely as Artemis or golden Aphrodite
•20.060 ...Penelope prays first to Artemis
•20.061 ...Penelope calls upon Artemis, daughter of Zeus, to pierce her heart and ease her pain
•20.071 ...Penelope thinks of the daughters of Pandareos (Pandareus) and how Hera gave them beauty, chaste Artemis gave them stature and Athene (Athena) gave them skill
•20.080 ...Penelope wishes that the gods would make her vanish or that lovely haired Artemis would kill her so she could be with Odysseus in the Underworld
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Plato's Cratylus):
•Artemis is named from her healthy (artemes), well-ordered nature, and because of her love of virginity, perhaps because she is a proficient in virtue (arete), and perhaps also as hating intercourse of the sexes (ton aroton miseasa).
Proof that Artemis exists (from The Theogony of Hesiod):
•(ll. 1-25) From the Heliconian Muses let us begin to sing, who hold the great and holy mount of Helicon, and dance on soft feet about the deep-blue spring and the altar of the almighty son of Cronos, and, when they have washed their tender bodies in Permessus or in the Horse's Spring or Olmeius, make their fair, lovely dances upon highest Helicon and move with vigorous feet. Thence they arise and go abroad by night, veiled in thick mist, and utter their song with lovely voice, praising Zeus the aegis- holder and queenly Hera of Argos who walks on golden sandals and the daughter of Zeus the aegis-holder bright-eyed Athene, and Phoebus Apollo, and Artemis who delights in arrows, and Poseidon the earth-holder who shakes the earth, and reverend Themis and quick-glancing (1) Aphrodite, and Hebe with the crown of gold, and fair Dione, Leto, Iapetus, and Cronos the crafty counsellor, Eos and great Helius and bright Selene, Earth too, and great Oceanus, and dark Night, and the holy race of all the other deathless ones that are for ever. And one day they taught Hesiod glorious song while he was shepherding his lambs under holy Helicon, and this word first the goddesses said to me -- the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:
•(ll. 918-920) And Leto was joined in love with Zeus who holds the aegis, and bare Apollo and Artemis delighting in arrows, children lovely above all the sons of Heaven.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN I. TO ZEUS):
•Thus, smith, we say, belong to Hephaestus; to Ares, warriors; to Artemis of the Tunic, huntsmen; to Phoebus they that know well the strains of the lyre.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN II. TO APOLLO):
•[60] Artemis hunted and brought continually the heads of Cynthian goats and Phoebus plaited an altar.
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Callimachus - HYMN III. TO ARTEMIS):
•[1] Artemis we hymn – no light thing is it for singers to forget her – whose study is the bow and the shooting of hares and the spacious dance and sport upon the mountains;
• And give to me all mountains; and for city, assign me any, even whatsoever thou wilt: for seldom is it that Artemis goes down to the town.
•[28] ... Three times ten cities and towers more than one will I vouchsafe thee – three times ten cities that shall not know to glorify any other god but to glorify the only and be called of Artemis And thou shalt be Watcher over Streets and harbours.
•[98] ... And thou wert suddenly amazed and sadist to thine own heart: “This would be a first capture worthy of Artemis.”
•[109] Artemis, Lady of Maidenhood, Slayer of Tityus, golden were thine arms and golden thy belt, and a golden car didst thou yoke, and golden bridles, goddess, didst thou put on thy deer.
•[233] For thee surely Proetus established two shrines, one of Artemis of Maidenhood for that thou dist gather for him his maiden daughters, when they were wandering over the Azanian hills; the other he founded in Lusa to Artemis the Gentle, because thou tookest from his daughters the spirit of wildness.
•[258] O Lady of Munychia, Watcher of Harbours, hail, Lady of Pherae! Let none disparage Artemis.
Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN IV. TO DELOS):
•[228] So she spake and seated her beside the golden throne, even as a hunting hound of Artemis, which, when it hath ceased from the swift chase, sitteth by her feet, and its ears are erect, ever ready to receive the call of the goddess.
Proof that Artemis exists (from the Callimachus - HYMN V. ON THE BATH OF PALLAS):
•[93] ... And yet he shall be companion of the chase to great Artemis.
•[1.1.4] The Athenians have also another harbor, at Munychia, with a temple of Artemis of Munychia, and yet another at Phalerum, as I have already stated, and near it is a sanctuary of Demeter.
•[1.14.5] ... This is the victory of which I am of opinion the Athenians were proudest; while Aeschylus, who had won such renown for his poetry and for his share in the naval battles before Artemisium and at Salamis, recorded at the prospect of death nothing else, and merely wrote his name, his father's name, and the name of his city, and added that he had witnesses to his valor in the grove at Marathon and in the Persians who landed there.
•[1.19.6] Across the Ilisus is a district called Agrae and a temple of Artemis Agrotera (the Huntress). They say that Artemis first hunted here when she came from Delos, and for this reason the statue carries a bow.
•[1.21.3] ... This also has a tripod over it, wherein are Apollo and Artemis slaying the children of Niobe.
•[1.23.7] I remember looking at other things also on the Athenian Acropolis, a bronze boy holding the sprinkler, by Lycius son of Myron, and Myron's Perseus after beheading Medusa. There is also a sanctuary of Brauronian Artemis; the image is the work of Praxiteles, but the goddess derives her name from the parish of Brauron. The old wooden image is in Brauron, the Tauric Artemis as she is called.
•[1.26.4] Near the statue of Olympiodorus stands a bronze image of Artemis surnamed Leucophryne, dedicated by the sons of Themistocles; for the Magnesians, whose city the King had given him to rule, hold Artemis Leucophryne in honor.
•[1.29.2] ... As you go down to it you come to a precinct of Artemis, and wooden images of Ariste (Best) and Calliste (Fairest). In my opinion, which is supported by the poems of Pamphos, these are surnames of Artemis.
•[1.31.1] ... At Alimus is a sanctuary of Demeter Lawgiver and of the Maid, and at Zoster (Girdle) on the coast is an altar to Athena, as well as to Apollo, to Artemis and to Leto.
•[1.31.4] Such is the legend. Phlya and Myrrhinus have altars of Apollo Dionysodotus, Artemis Light-bearer, Dionysus Flower-god, the Ismenian nymphs and Earth, whom they name the Great goddess;
•[1.31.5] Athmonia worships Artemis Amarysia.
•[1.33.1] XXXIII. At some distance from Marathon is Brauron, where, according to the legend, Iphigenia, the daughter of Agamemnon, landed with the image of Artemis when she fled from the Tauri; leaving the image there she came to Athens also and afterwards to Argos. There is indeed an old wooden image of Artemis here, but who in my opinion have the one taken from the foreigners I will set forth in another place.
•[1.36.1] XXXVI. But I will return to my subject. In Salamis is a sanctuary of Artemis, and also a trophy erected in honor of the victory which Themistocles the son of Neocles won for the Greeks.
•[1.38.6] The Eleusinians have a temple of Triptolemus, of Artemis of the Portal, and of Poseidon Father, and a well called Callichorum (Lovely dance), where first the women of the Eleusinians danced and sang in praise of the goddess.
•[1.40.2] Not far from this fountain is an ancient sanctuary, and in our day likenesses stand in it of Roman emperors, and a bronze image is there of Artemis surnamed Saviour. is a story that a detachment of the army of Mardonius, having over run Megaris, wished to return to Mardonius at Thebes, but that by the will of Artemis night came on them as they marched, and missing their way they turned into the hilly region.
•[1.40.3] ... For this reason they had an image made of Artemis Saviour. Here are also images of the gods named the Twelve, said to be the work of Praxiteles. But the image of Artemis herself was made by Strongylion.
•[1.41.3] Not far from the tomb of Hyllus is a temple of Isis, and beside it one of Apollo and of Artemis.
• ...Alcathous therefore, son of Pelops, attacked the beast and overcame it, and when he came to the throne he built this sanctuary, surnaming Artemis Agrotera (Huntress) and Apollo Agraeus (Hunter).
•[1.41.6] ...Let so much suffice for Alcathous and for the lion, whether it was on Cithaeron or elsewhere that the killing took place that caused him to make a temple to Artemis Agrotera and Apollo Agraeus.
•[1.43.1] ... Now I have heard another account of Iphigenia that is given by Arcadians and I know that Hesiod, in his poem A Catalogue of Women, says that Iphigenia did not die, but by the will of Artemis is Hecate.
• ... A sanctuary of Artemis was made by Agamemnon when he came to persuade Calchas, who dwelt in Megara, to accompany him to Troy.
•[1.44.2] In it is a noteworthy Apollo, Artemis also, and Leto, and other statues, made by Praxiteles.
•[1.44.4] In Pagae a noteworthy relic is a bronze image of Artemis surnamed Saviour, in size equal to that at Megara and exactly like it in shape.
•[7.2.6] ... The sanctuary of Apollo at Didymi, and his oracle, are earlier than the immigration of the Ionians, while the cult of Ephesian Artemis is far more ancient still than their coming.
•[7.6.6] ... A likeness of this Adrastus in bronze was dedicated in front of the sanctuary of Persian Artemis by the Lydians, who wrote an inscription to the effect that Adrastus died fighting for the Greeks against Leonnatus.
•[7.18.8] On the acropolis of Patrae is a sanctuary of Artemis Laphria.
•[7.18.9] ... It is said that the goddess was surnamed Laphria after a man of Phocis, because the ancient image of Artemis was set up at Calydon by Laphrius, the son of Castalius, the son of Delphus.
•[7.18.10] Others say that the wrath of Artemis against Oeneus weighed as time went on more lightly (elaphroteron) on the Calydonians, and they believe that this was why the goddess received her surname.
•[7.18.11] Every year too the people of Patrae celebrate the festival Laphria in honor of their Artemis, and at it they employ a method of sacrifice peculiar to the place.
•[7.18.12] The festival begins with a most splendid procession in honor of Artemis, and the maiden officiating as priestess rides last in the procession upon a car yoked to deer.
•[7.19.1] The Ionians who lived in Aroe, Antheia and Mesatis had in common a precinct and a temple of Artemis surnamed Triclaria, and in her honor the Ionians used to celebrate every year a festival and an all-night vigil.
•[7.19.3] The history of Melanippus, like that of many others, proved that love is apt both to break the laws of men and to desecrate the worship of the gods, seeing that this pair had their fill of the passion of love in the sanctuary of Artemis.
• ... Forthwith the wrath of Artemis began to destroy the inhabitants; the earth yielded no harvest, and strange diseases occurred of an unusually fatal character.
• ... The oracle ordered that they themselves should be sacrificed to Artemis, and that every year a sacrifice should be made to the goddess of the fairest youth and the fairest maiden.
•[7.19.6] The sacrifice to Artemis of human beings is said to have ceased in this way.
•[7.20.1] It was in this way that they used to array of old those whom they led to be sacrificed to Artemis.
•[7.20.7] ... Opposite the marketplace by this exit is a precinct and temple of Artemis, the Lady of the Lake.
•[7.24.1] XXIV. By the market-place at Aegium is a temple shared by Apollo and Artemis in common; and in the market-place there is a sanctuary of Artemis, who is represented in the act of shooting an arrow, and also the grave of Talthybius the herald.
•[7.26.3] The Hyperesians gave their city its present name of Aegeira from the goats (aiges), and where the most beautiful goat, which led the others, crouched, they built a sanctuary of Artemis the Huntress, believing that the trick against the Sicyonians was an inspiration of Artemis.
•[7.26.5] There is also a temple of Artemis, with an image of the modern style of workmanship.
•[7.26.11] ... There are sanctuaries of Dionysus and of Artemis.
•[7.27.3] Above the temple of Athena is a grove, surrounded by a wall, of Artemis surnamed Saviour, by whom they swear their most solemn oaths.
•[7.27.4] Near the sanctuary of Apollo is a temple of Artemis, the goddess being represented in the attitude of shooting.
There is no concrete proof of God's existence. Even the Bible says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). Of course He could prove His existence in a moment if He so desired, but He wants us to come to Him because we want to by faith, not because we can no longer deny His existence.
He has proven His existence in MY life, by answering prayer and performing miracles. And for me, further proof of His existence lies in the minute details that add vitality to all life -- for example, how fragile, yet so perfectly complex, our minds and nervous systems are; or how every little thing serves some purpose in keeping our atmospheres so balanced.
If you're looking for the reason for suffering, why some starve and why others do not, if you're looking for the perfect world -- well, God gave us one and we ruined it by sinning against Him. And even before that, Lucifer created the possibility for sin by attempting to overthrow God. God created us all with freewill -- so why does He need to come down and fix all of our problems on a whim when He never created them, and when we have the means to do it ourselves, but apparently lack the willpower?
I just think our whole expectation and concept of God is out of whack, causing us to believe or disbelieve in something out of our comprehension. If God does exist, the facts of it's existence is altered by man anyway. There's no definite way to know. Materialism is like a form of faith...people put every ounce of belief in it without questioning a thing.
God is real. If not, how were we created? How were our ancestors created? How were the forests, seas and skies created? God created the heavens and the earth. He created the universe where all the planets are created. In the Bible's first chapter, it explains how everything was made and how our world developed.
There's this thing called the BIG BANG and you should probably look it up. You can't prove that the bible are the words of God. And you also obviously didn't go to school and learn the required subject of SCIENCE.
There is proof of the Big Bang, but how do you know it actually happened? There are numerous creation theories, though Big Bang has the most evidence. How could you prove something wrong if you don't have evidence to go against the argument that God created everything? You can't use science theories like the Big Bang against this argument because there isn't sufficient evidence to prove the Big Bang as a fact. Use solid science facts against it instead.
I'm gonna tell you this as kindly as possible. I too am a theist, but this is a very...sad argument. If you use this argument in a real debate, atheists will chew you up and spit you out.
there is no doubt that god exits he does and always will even if people think he does not exits than they should even answer us that how were they made and if once life ends will they be just sleeping if commonsense is used than it's easy to understand
If you used any common sense you would understand that you had nothing to come up with than your own beliefs. Do you have any agrument that support your beliefs? Afterlife? Sure, do you have any evidence for the afterlife. Did god made you? Or did you parents made you?
Why is it important for you to "live" after you die? No, nobody sleeps. People are just dissolved into atomes and molecyles they are made of for other life to use. Simple and insignificant. Maybe difficult for you to understand that you are not "special god child", but your life should not be worse for that. On the contrary, it will help you be a better person if you understand that your person is what you make it and not what somebody else (god) made you to be. If more people understand that, maybe it would be much less suffering on this planet.
well then, can you prove there are no afterlife? And how do you know afterlife would be like that; being atoms or something. I don't get it. why wouldn't there be less suffering if everyone believed there were no god? At least the ones who believe are happy. have you ever tried believing a religion or are you just spewing all this stuff out of your head?
Like I said to the other guy, this is a very sad argument. You are gonna get torn up in the real world. You want to make your point and win, right? Well, you are failing. I recommend learning a bit more about debate then coming back. I hope you continue to make points (And this time good ones). I hate to seem rude, for I am on your side, but this argument just won't cut it out there.
In the case of people suffering... people suffer all the time, there is no denying that. It is possible that God has created these individuals for the sole purpose of testing others, correct? and perhaps they even go to heaven or they died because they would have committed evil, or perhaps it was just their time to go. people will die regardless, that is the only certainty in this world. So when people are suffering, perhaps it is up for us, the fortunate to help them out instead of being greedy and self absorbent.
Now, thermodynamics can also be used to prove a higher deity. I have seen many professors do so, this is a well acknowledged fact.
Also, there is a misconception going around that religious people ( i am Muslim btw) despise science and that we are bigots of sorts. Many Muslims have been great contributors to the advancement of science, mathematics, culture, education, philosophical ideas, and many more subjects. And, the idea of micro-evolution does not go against Islam's idea. same with physics, chemistry, biology or anything else.
Regarding the ancestry of apes theory, it is true that they are very similar to us.. no one should disagree with that, but we are also very similar to bananas too.. our DNA is 60-80% the same.
Thank you, I look forward to hearing your replies.
It is possible that God has created these individuals for the sole purpose of testing others, correct?
Whauh! :) No it is not correct. First you seem to be talking about Judaism/Christianity/Islam where there is notion of god creating people. According to those religions all people are created equal, so your theory is in direct contradiction to those religions. Furthermore god made Adam & Eve to be perfect yet they become evil and didn't obey him, so obviously evilness was not what he meant in his creation if you are to believe to religion. Yet another proof that religion is wrong. Also it shows your own arrogance, which is a form of evil because you are putting yourself on a pedestal and proclaiming yourself to be a "fortunate" by which you mean "better" than those "evil" people.
Now, thermodynamics can also be used to prove a higher deity. I have seen many professors do so, this is a well acknowledged fact. :-) Show us works of those.
Also, there is a misconception going around that religious people ( i am Muslim btw) despise science and that we are bigots of sorts. No there is not. You religious people are by definition retards because you can't believe in your own logic and moral, but need somebody else to tell you what to do.
Many Muslims have been great contributors to the advancement of science, mathematics, culture, education, philosophical ideas, and many more subjects. And, the idea of micro-evolution does not go against Islam's idea. same with physics, chemistry, biology or anything else. It is true that people from middle east, Africa, India and some other currently Muslim countries has contributed a lot to science. But mostly it was before Islam. Sole purpose of science goes against Islam, and other religions so you are either a bad believer, or a bad scientist.
Regarding the ancestry of apes theory, it is true that they are very similar to us.. no one should disagree with that, but we are also very similar to bananas too.. our DNA is 60-80% the same.Yes, I am glad you have recognized yourself as a banana so I don't have to point that out for for you. Maybe you move to some banana republic so you can pray more to a banana god to make you even more fortune in the future so some banana dictature with support of that banana god can peel even more decency and humanity off of you.
I don't think it's a specific "being." Even if it started from nothing, that nothing itself could be what god is. Perhaps he's nothing, either way it is irrelevant.
There is no doubt that God exist. God is the ultimate and infinite cause of all things, and will always explain the universe, life, and intelligent human beings.
I like these quotes from some of the worlds smartest men:
Sir Isaac Newton
"He must be blind who from the most wise and excellent contrivances of things cannot see the Infinite Wisdom and goodness of their Almighty Creator, and he must be mad and senseless who refuses to acknowledge them" (And people claim he was an Atheist! Shows what they know)
C.B. Anfinsen, Ph.D. (Bio-chemistry, Harvard), Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry, put it more succinctly whe he wrote, "I think only an idiot can be an atheist"
- Albert Einstein
"“The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects.”
- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist)
Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.”
- Max Planck
(founder of the quantum theory and one of the most important physicists of the twentieth century)
“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
- Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics) Tipler, F.J. 1994. The Physics Of Immortality. New York, Doubleday, Preface.
“When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.”
Sir Fred Hoyle, a famous UK astronomer, wrote:
"A super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology … The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number of 10 with 40 thousand noughts (zeros) after it. It is enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of Evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random they must therefore have been the product of a purposeful intelligence," (Nature: vol.294:105, Nov 12 1981).
If God was not real, how was the earth created from nothing. After all, the Catholic Bible says that God created all from nothing. If it was written in a book, shouldn't it be true??
I agree with you about "How was the Earth created from nothing?"
But does god explain this?
How was god created from nothing?
& how did he magic up a universe in 7 days!?
At least the Big Bang doesn't imply the universe as we know today was completely formed in a ridiculously short time!
It was written in a book, so you believe it?
There are many books about the Big Bang, but both theories cannot be true.
No-one is alive today who witnessed events in the bible or the bible being written, so who is to say it isn't a fictional book that got out of hand & people took seriously?
As for word of mouth down from generations, how do you know it isn't a myth like Big Foot or the Lockness Monster (I'm aware I probably spelt Lockness wrong).
Hey, God was not created. God has always been exisent, same as his son, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I quote the old carol, O come all ye faithful, when I say,
Either everything requires a creator, or it doesn't. If everything requires a creator, then declaring your belief to be the exception undermines the initial claim that everything needs a creator.
When God spoke to Moses He said His name is "I Am"
Many times God is called The Alpha and the Omega The Beginning and the End.
If God exists who is man to question Him. Who is man to demand proof or to demand anything from God.
If He is content to create us, then shouldn't us existing be our lot in life. If we are just assembled then what is soul and what is conscience?
Besides humanity what other species has a conscience.
Conscience is right or wrong. Well you can train right and wrong.
You can train a mouse the right way through the maze to get the cheese.
You can train a dog to obey and do tricks.
Dog lovers they love you! Right? Sure they have an instinct that considers you part of the pack. They have loyalty and they live to please you, and look quilts when they tear up your couch cushions.
God made animals and brought them to Adam and no suitable help mate or companion was like him. So God made animals and even offered them as companions and help mates, but He said not suitable to be like him.
The dog does love you, but there is not really conscience, there is instinct. And the guilt he feels is a conditioned response to the reaction of displeasure he is aware of when you come in. Or he is aware every time he does this behavior it brings displeasure.
But conscience isn't just instinct. It isn't even a conditioned response.
Our consciences exist independently. We are born with a conscience, we become aware of it as we grow.
Conscience is either dulled or made sensitive.
But it existed before being molded.
Conscience can be effected by disease or environment.
But these factors have to alter the conscience we are born with.
Every decission made affecting conscience that is made in the mind isn't an act of conscience.
An act is taken disregarding conscience or in light of conscience.
Example Hitler actions weren't a result of conscience, they were a result of depravity of conscience.
Whatever was put in or pushed through Hitler was an act of depravity silencing his conscience.
Pharoah in the Moses story " let my people go" is a Bible example of a hardened heart, or conscience. A conscience can be dulled to the point of depravity. But still we all have 1.
I'm sure there was even a line Hitler wouldn't cross because of whatever was left of his conscience. Maybe he was dull there was no line left.
The question is, Did the big bang send our consciences?
What else in creation has a conscience?
A conscience can haunt someone, nag at someone, cause guilt, or justice, or cause freedom, take a stand, or take a fall.
Its something that can feel.
Its something that attaches emotion to our actions and our choices. It is the why and the motive of the heart not of the head.
Its the final say when making a list of available choices when consequences have a deeper effect than eating a piece of cake or a piece of fruit.
Our consciences isn't our preferences or our likes and dislikes.
Its a place inside that feels the choice. A piece of cake could be conscience if it's someone else's cake, or if your on a diet and cheating.
But see its a feeling about the action.
Most of us don't feel anything about our piece of cake.
Now if it's double chocolate and makes you think of mom, and you remember how you hurt her when you ran away, thats conscience.
If there is not a God then how do we exclusively have a conscience?
The Bible says God breathed life into the man and he was created a living soul.
It also says God wrote the law on our consciences so no one would have an excuse.
The 1st act of wronged conscience was Adam and Eve hiding in the garden. There is no need to hide if your conscience has nothing to hide.
Man can hide things for years because of conscience. Can any other created thing carry that weight within themselves?
Is man truely unique in creation?
The Bible says Let Us make Man in Our Image
US is the Trinity
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
If you say conscience is conditioning, well just like the 1st act of creation was a burst of light or black hole of gravity, and the question never answered who created that 1st reaction.
Isnt nothing even something. If something didn't exist how then can nothing exist?
So if conscience was created by conditioning who set up the 1st conscience?
And if man isn't unique then what other creatures have also learned conscience? And after you tell me about those creatures tell me how they passed conscience on to their dependents?
Evan the ape has instinct, but is instinct and conscience the same thing?
People don't have to believen GOD it is whether your religion believes in him or they don't. Some people don't follow there religion really it just matters what a person believes. THERE IS KNOW RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION PEOPLE CAN BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY WANT! NO ONE EVER SAID PEOPLE DONT HAVE A CHOICE!
People don't have to believen GOD it is whether your religion believes in him or they don't. Some people don't follow there religion really it just matters what a person believes. THERE IS KNOW RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION PEOPLE CAN BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY WANT! NO ONE EVER SAID PEOPLE DONT HAVE A CHOICE!
Yes, God will excess you know why? Look at the sorounding iknow God was created all those things.For example you as a human who make your life who will arranges the inside and outside of your body.No one can do that except God alone.
Well this one day I was at a river.. I wanted to get to the other side.. I was so helpless.. I didn't know what to do.. suddenly as I was starring at the water.. a few pieces of wood just appeared then I noticed a few nails in the river.. the pieces of wood and nails came together and suddenly a boat was just made out of nowhere and I was able to cross the river.. how ridiculous do I sound to you at this point?
well look at it this way. if god is not real then why is there no evidence to support it?
explain the conscience? explain shame? better yet explain feelings
you can't say it is supernatural because god is of the supernatural along with his creations right? so if it is not supernatural but can't be explained by natural means then what is feeling? e.g. love shame, anger
explain how the universe started in a more scientific way then "a bunch of random stuff happened."
try to explain it without god or something supernatural.
and human suffering is not through god's will but through our own correct? we are the ones suffering not god. we are the ones that can neglect other people's suffering, and we are the ones that can save them from it.
so therefore god is fulfilling what he said about our free will. and mankind has the potential to do good to others and to himself.
He didn't state an opinion, he stated a fact about what other people believe. Obviously my opinion is valid if he is going to make a statement about my opinion. Learn to read.
It takes much more faith to believe that nothing just exploded and created everything than to believe that God simply managed it all.
I feel sorry for you atheists who have to believe that you are nothing but an animal. Well you can be ano evolved monkey if you want I know I was created by God and that he has a personal relationship with me.
He is pretty much saying that he even thinks that it's hard to believe that if you put your faith in God, then everything that God promises will happen and he is Christian. But when we say faith we are accepting God into our life, giving God our souls to protect. We live for God.
It all comes down to a leap of faith. Atheists put their faith in that matter appeared out of nowhere to cause the big bang. Theists put their faith in that God has and will always exist. Scientist will tell you that, things do not just sporadically materialise into existence by themselves yet somehow they put this as a cornerstone for the creation of the universe? I agree that it is difficult to put blind faith into believing in a creator but it seems even more difficult to believe that atoms mysteriously materialise out of nowhere and magically collide into each other perfectly to cause the universe. Surely it makes more sense that even if you do not believe in the Christian God that a higher being created the world, otherwise you believe that, although it has never happened since or will ever happen again in the future, things are created by themselves.
If God doesn't exist, then who is the creator? will you say the natural forces? Natural laws?... who made these natural laws? Everything has a creator, and the Creator is "God".
In today's modern society, everybody has an answer to every question. If one was to ask 'How is anything on Earth possible if not brought possible by the grace of God?' The answer would be simple: SCIENCE. I understand why people may not believe in God for the simple fact that if there is a God, why has God chosen to bring: famine,poverty,crime,violence and endless other things that makes us lose hope in humanity each and every day but God did not ask you to go and commit a crime, God did not ask you to spend your money on funding a war that seems to never end, God never asked you to start a war which resulted in war,famine and poverty. God has blessed you with all the things you need to stop these things. God has given a functioning brain to use for good, to come up with new and improved ways to help one another. You were never given a brain to invent weapons but to fight against disease like Cancer and Ebola. We could all sit there at our computers screen or our mobile phones and blame God for the things that we as humans have caused but at the end of the day, the world is still the same place it was before you started typing. Only us as humans have the ability to get up and change the world that we are so unhappy about that we have resorted to blaming God because we gave up on trying to fix it.
Just look at our society in America since Liberal Democrats decided to wage war against our Christian heritage and traditional values 60 years ago.
If you are honest and look at our divorce rates, our broken homes, the numbers of foster kids and gang members, the drug addictions, un wed mothers, our debt problems, swollen welfare roles, etc. then there can be no other conclusion. The goal of Liberals to separate any mention of God in our public places has truly hurt America. That is not proof of God but it truly shows how a culture will degrade when you censor any mention of God from a nation's public square. Please don't try to compare our Christain heritage to the religions of hate around the world.
Personally, I would rather believe in a God and then find out I was wrong all along, than disbelieve God's existence and then get thrown in to the lake of fire. Who's with me for not getting thrown into the sulphur lake? Show of hands please!
God's existence is proven using a number of rational inductions and watertight deductions, including and especially the modal ontological argument by Alvin Plantinga.
Thanks for mentioning it, I hadn't heard of it before.
I love this easy to understand clip I have linked showing
the Modal Ontological Argument by Alvin Plantinga.
I love the logic to answer absurd arguements mentioned in the video are arguments commonly given. And they leave me thinking "duh that's a ridiculous argument" not apples to apples. They points are crude, undefined, unthought out nonsense arguments that leave me feeling like there is no intellegent work in their answers to disprove the existence of God by people who use broad strokes taught to them in evolution and nonsense argument when it comes to and how did the 1st speck appear?
So I was really glad to hear this argument because it comes down to a bottom line that clearly compares ridiculous to logical. So now I can put that feeling to words and show them why their argument is ridiculous compared to a true logical answer.
God undoubtedly exists, many years before Jesus Christ's birth there were written prophecies. 300 of them were full-filled. You do realise thats like a bunch of people singing religious songs decades before your birth claiming *50. That is a pretty slim chance. This could even be referred to as a miracle; what is god capable of performing. Right. Miracles. I speak with substance: These prophecies have been dated by Scientists and professionals alike to have existed long before Christ himself. That is JUST christianity. It is merely a molecule of (NaCl) in this vast ocean.
There is already proof that god exist, the bible, saints, miracles, And tell me what proofs that god doesn't exist GOD IS REAL HE IS THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT
There are inconsistencies in the Bible making it suspect as a piece of evidence. Saints are just nice people. Miracles are natural occurrences. The Bible provides several explanations that cannot be backed up with scientific data. Fossils, DNA, and geology all show the accounts in the Bible are false.
I don't understand the example as a inconsistency or as a contradiction
Judas betrayed Jesus, not sure what was in his mind in the betrayal,
Some say it was political, Judas may have thought pushing Jesus into this would force Him to take a political stand. Others think Judas was a greedy miser and 30 pieces of silver was significant to further whatever Judas justified it with.
We see conflict within him, which is typical human nature we see everday! Someone makes a mistake, is overwhelmed within their conscience. Obviously Judas had this conflict. He took the money. Identified Jesus by a kiss, and when He saw the events unfold, which he may not and probably didn't fully anticipate, it freaked him out. Doesn't that happen everyday a thousand times over. We make a decission to do something with a preconceived idea of its unfolding and outcome, only to find we were just a part of making a mess we didn't intend?
But Judas still did betray, and he didn't do what Peter did.
See you actually have a side by side comparison of that day. It's like a season of "24 Hours"
Two disciples betrayed that day!
Both were prophesied before it happened.
Judas was prophesied by Jesus as a general comment, He said 1 would betray me ... And also Judas' betrayal was prophesied
a few times in the Old Testament when prophets were foretelling
of the Messiah's death.
Peter, THE ROCK, also betrayed Jesus!
Jesus said to Peter, this day before the rooster crows you will deny me 3 times.
But then Jesus also prophesied to Peter, that Peter would be strong after that, and then will ultimately follow Jesus in death.
And Peter also was crucified later.
As far as Judas throwing the money, and them taking it to buy a field. It was spent assets and they used it in that manner.
Matt 27
Judas’s Remorse
27 Now when morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people conferred together against Jesus to put Him to death; 2 and they bound Him, and led Him away and delivered Him to Pilate the governor.
3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty [a]pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” But they said, “What is that to us? See to that yourself!”
5 And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7 And they conferred together and [b]with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “And [c]they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of the one whose price had been set by the sons of Israel; 10 and [d]they gave them for the Potter’s Field, as the Lord directed me.”
Actually, they don’t contradict themselves. Here are the two verses in question:
And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)
(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.) (Acts 1:18)
They are simply told from two different perspectives. Judas was given the money, was he not? The priests refused to receive the money back. The money was still Judas’, so legally he bought the field. As far as the actual circumstances of death, the second account only omits the actual hanging. It’s possible (and even likely) that Judas didn’t quite get it right, and the rope broke (hence the fall).
The Bible is historical and preknown events, with scriptures detailing information to us that we need to know in order to successfully follow a path to God. And to be children of God, and to eventually live eternity with Him in a New Heaven and a New Earth as this one will eventually be destroyed.
This is a conversation Jesus had before His betrayal.
We see Jesus knowing 1 will betray and knowing the 1 who betrays will condemn himself by his own conscience!
9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
The Disciples in the World
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
Jesus also prophesied they will strike the Shephard and the sheep will be scattered. That's exactly what happened. It was a commotion. Like us, even though Jesus was right in front of them telling them the order of events, the itinerary, they still were caught off guard. Peter cut off an ear of the soldier, the followers were going nuts, then they fell back feeling their lives also would be taken. They were scared! Yet most of them later faced severe situations of imprisonment, being fed to lions, lost their heads, stoned, murdered! Peter was the only one that I know of that was also crucified. And Jesus pre-telling told to Peter this would be his way of following Him in death.
In John 21 - Its interesting also Jesus makes Peter answer 3 times of his devotion.
So we see Jesus saying He will betray 3 times, and also profess his devotion 3 times. Jesus knowing that when Peter is strengthened he will tend sheep like Jesus did, and will follow Him in death.
John 21:
Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.” 16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Tend My sheep.
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.” 19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”
So not only did Jesus pre-tell both Judas' and Peter's betrayals to accuracy, He also decided to pre-tell both of their ends!
He didnt tell everyone their end. But these 2 were purposeful prophesy as a comparison.
He told of Judas' betrayal with a kiss, and then Judas' remorse leading to his condemnation of conscience, and then to his death.
He wasn't martyred in love and devotion. He lost his life in his own self condemnation. A few things here - you seem to know scriptures a bit, so I won't look email all up, feel free to look up at Biblehub.com "They honor Me with their lips, BUT their hearts are far from me."
Then Peter, Jesus asks 3 times for a declaration of love, and comforts Peter, as if to make sure Peter's conscience endures what is to come, so the guilt of portrayal wasn't Peter's final story.
And how humbling to say such big talk, only to be made a fool of within yourself. We all have that thing where we hold our heads and say how could I ... well this was one of Peter's times.
Big talker to failure, to being empowered by God's Spirit and then follow to the point of being crucified also!
I think I showed the same thing from 3 authors Matt Mark and John and its in Luke too.
All authored these writings at different times in different places recounting their memories without conferring with each other to make sure they all spun the same story.
Think of it like this you have 3 guys rob some stores. And 1 clerk gets shot. The 3 bozos put their heads together and construct a story, all agreeing to the same false story.
How does that usually work out when they actually have to state lies during different times of the investigation?
But if the 3 guys actually told the truth, the whole truth. There is no deviation because details are recalled as memory. Not memorized with a conflict to their memories.
See when people lie together there are 6 accounts present in the mind. 3 true accounts and 3 fabricated accounts.
That's hard to do, even in a short term with coordination, and it almost always gets mucked up!
But 3 truth accounts are a piece of cake. You may have a different prespective from each. But they dont usually contradict each other.
Most times even with a different prespective if truth is being told the picture of the scene can be reconstructed from either prespective giving an accurate picture of the event.
Jesus mission was to die on the cross and rise in 3 days!
So He followed the prophesied of how when and why.
If you think it's a contradiction to choose the betrayer, then you don't understand prophesy. Prophesy is what will happen, not what may happen, or changeable in some way.
Prophesy is a word that comes TRUE!
So it would make make prophesy untrue to deviate from what is prophesied. And since there was no lie in Him, He could not deviate from the TRUTH of prophesy. Afterall, Jesus is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us!
The word says:
Isaiah 55
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Provide 20 - we see Jesus the friend who is faithful and wounded
And Judas offers the false kisses of an enemy !
Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.
Remember Joseph, the favored child of Jacob, the other name for Jacob, later given the name Israel?
Do you remember how the brothers beat him and left him for dead, then sold him?
Only to have Joseph save them even after their betrayal. And to be in a position of power because of betrayal, to then save them from an extreme famine?
That's a picture of Jesus being rejected by Israel and being betrayed by a payment. And then forgiveness to Israel and offering Salvation despite their cruel behavior.
A clearer prophesy specific to Judas -
Pharisees were shepherds of the Jews, they were their pastors,
This is a word of God saying how little value they placed on Him.
They paid 30 pieces of silver. The Pharisees had all this memorized, you'd think they could have changed prophesy, right? Yet they couldn't and didn't!
Zechariah 11
10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was [r]broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord. 12 I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
Judas didn't buy the field the Pharisees did, and the payment was to murder Jesus not to murder Judas!
5 Then Judas threw the silver coins down in the Temple and went out and hanged himself.
6 The leading priests picked up the coins. “It wouldn’t be right to
put this money in the Temple treasury,” they said, “since it was payment for murder.” 7 After some discussion they finally decided to buy the potter’s field, and they made it into a cemetery for foreigners. 8 That is why the field is still called the Field of Blood.
9 This fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah that says,
“They took the thirty pieces of silver—
the price at which he was valued by the people of Israel,
I believe, there is a great a supernatural power who controls everything, named as god. There are many problems in the day to day life but that is part of life and you cant blame God for that. It is rightly said that, Hard work is the key to success; therefore the one who doesn't believe in hard work is the poor and you cat blame God for that problem. If the natural disasters is the main point then as the name suggests it is natural, so God is not responsible. God helps us at all times. He gives you what you ask for. If the complaint is that he gives it to you late, then remember that he doesn't punish you for your sins immediately either. If there was no god then what do you think, who created the earth, our universe, It was God. However science exists. There are all the laws and everything. All of it is right but I still believe in GOD. Believe in god and live a happy life.
I.................................................................................................................... want to debate. One on one with an atheist
of course he does, he is non-existing, therefore asking whether or not he exists is pointless. You cannot ask if an incorporeal thing exists, since by its definition, it does not.
It depends on what you define 'God' as. If you believe that one superior being created the entire universe there is much skepticism towards that. Especially since if you listen to theoretical physicists they can explain how we might be a branch universe, of a multiple universe system.
If you believe that 'God' is an alien life form who gave resources to individuals on planet earth, so these aliens were portrayed to less technological civilizations as a superior being, well that seems to be a much more rational ideation.
God is real! He is the creator of mankind and He loves you.
You were created by Him and He knows everything about you.
You were made to have a relationship with God.
We were created to have a relationship with God. But that relationship was broken when we disobeyed God.
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23
God is perfect, we are not.
Since perfection is unobtainable for us that made God unobtainable. Sin separates us from God.
Since God is the source of life separation from Him means death.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23
Jesus came to save us.
God fixed this and He sent His Son in order to pay the penalty for our sins.
Now through faith in Jesus Christ our relationship with God can be restored. Our sins can be forgiven and we can have eternal life.
I believe, but now what?
The forgiveness of sins is not by works, it is a free gift based on what Jesus did for us.We receive His forgiveness by placing our faith and trust in Him.
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9
for all you atheist you are not possibly to expect that your gonna win this debate there is and has always been a higher being which we call god and he will always be there
God is in fact real. The world cant just be entirely based on science. The bible couldn't just have popped out of no where. It had to come from somewhere, like for example, God. Just cause theres no proof doesn't mean that its not true. For example, if one sister stole a toy from the younger sister, began to play with it, and put it back in the toy bin, there would've been no proof that the older sister ever took the toy from the younger sister's hands. The older sister could've just said that the younger sister never took it out of the bin. Many crimes are like this. There wasn't enough proof, but many people knew who did it. I can see how people don't believe in God, because I once that he wasn't real and he was just someone to look to for hope. However, now I know that God is always watching over me and he cares for me. I'm not trying to convince anyone to start seeing the light(even though I recommend it), I'm just simply stating my opinion.
Ahh...this is the ultimate question, isn't it? Do we exist with a plan, with a purpose, or are we just bunches of matter walking around?
I think the very fact that we are able to muse about such things is in and of itself some decently solid evidence towards a creator.
Look around you. Look at something as simple as a leaf on a tree, and what do you see? Maybe not much, but if you think about the complexity of each different cycle going on inside that tiny leaf, if you think about photosynthesis or the krebs cycle or even the structure of one tiny cell, you might wonder how on earth that happened 'by chance'. That's like spilling paint on a piece of paper and re-creating the Mona Lisa. Sure, it happened again and again as time went on and mistakes were corrected, but the complexity of the world around us simply cannot just be made by accident after accident as time bumbles along. Writing a strand of DNA by chance is about as likely as sitting a very well-behaved monkey at a computer and watching as it hits the keyboard randomly and manages to recreate Webster's Encyclopedia (five times in a row). Now sure, it can hit the backspace button as many times as it wants to and take a billion zillion years to do it, but it's still SO UNLIKELY. Now that's just ONE DNA STRAND. Factor in the (roughly) seven trillion cells in your body, each with six strands of DNA that need to be written and coded, and you've got yourself a heck of an endeavor. Sorry mister monkey, but I don't think it's happening. You need an intelligent designer such as Noah Webster if you want something other than a mess of letters all jumbled together.
An intelligent design seems to be the answer based upon the many facts which support it. Intelligent design goes into the irreducibly complex systems which were created and from these systems, it may be concluded that no god would be a foolish viewpoint because the idea of humans, or any other specimen, coming from nonliving matter and over millions of years coincidentally falling into place to work perfectly is a statement which is both ridiculous and ludicrous.
god is not a figure whom we imagine as ..he is the supreme power who has created this universe and there are superstitions based on that. the whole universe is created with a power and the nature around us is the creation of that power ..so yes there is god because we have named that power as god.
Everyone knows there is a God. Its choosing to know or not.
Creation itself shows God exists. Nothing jumped into existence.
Even the Creation story itself may answer some atheist views.
When I recently looked at the Genesis story, it occurred to me that
Each day wasn't a day as we know it. So it makes sense to have long
term growth of vegetation and then all of a sudden have creation jump into being on days 5 and 6.
So maybe a fresh look for the agnostic or even the atheist may cause a few questions or explanations that weren't thought of in their decisions.
Some are atheists because they don't want to believe their accountable, it's a matter of convenience to remove God. "The Santa idea, he knows when we are naughty"
Their denial of religion and of God have been formed by their views that they conclude mostly from avoiding God and avoiding thoughts that may challenge their convenient truth, and make their view without actually giving it some independent thorough investigation.
So willing to accept He doesn't exist, and argue He doesn't exist.
But very little if any on weighing the data that suggests He may actually exist. Its a 'convenient truth' to them, and its left unchallenged with a smug prove He exists but no responsibility to prove He doesn't.
Because they dont understand spiritual things they don't believe could exist, like a God who allows evil to exist, or pain, or will judge sin one day.
So the atheist hasn't given much thought on why or how God exists, their focus is on ignoring any details that my otherwise show that He does exist.
Throwing millions of years in between the days in Genesis is completely un-Biblical and unnecessary and casts doubt on the entire Bible. The way you are trying to blend millions of years implies the Bible is not true at all.
And doesn't really matter in regards to our Salvation.
But it may help in discussing with "atheist" that God is undeniable you still have nature jumping into being on day 5 and 6. The 1st 2 24 hour days. Which makes perfect sense because even atheist can't explain that jumping into being.
And as far as firmament that makes sense too.
"And water canopy makes real sense with the flood!
The sky's emptied of all that water and covered the earth.
Sounds very likely! So yeah thanks that's cool.
Scientifically there is data showing this time line that questions
God by atheists. Well if nature was going for whatever equivalent
of a day, whether it be 1000 years or 10,000 years is irrelevant.but
it also answers creation all of a sudden jumping into being. Even atheists have a difficult time explaining what we know happened
on day 5 or 6. So day 5 and 6 explain immediate presense of fish, birds, man, and animals.
Its actually not easily disputable in that light.
And the garden was separate to the "East"
So animals weren't confined to the garden.
And I'm not sure long Adam and Eve were in the garden.
But this is a logical explainion showing the world growing with forming vegetation and maybe even crawling bugs etc that are needed to reproduce vegetation. Maybe maybe not, He doesn't mention bugs in day 5 or day 6.
As far as expanse or firmament it offer a similar explanation, it still adds form to the earth suggesting it is round.
What strikes me about the accounts of the writers in the Bible is how cohesive and intelligent they were. They were like prodigies of modern knowledge and education and skills. Look at Creation 1st
The Creation in Genesis.
There was not a "24 hour period" until day 4
Day 1 God made Heavens and the Earth.
The Universe. It was formless void and dark. Made up mostly of water with dark space over the surface of the water.
The earth was floating in the Universe not spinning. Floating as any rock in space. And it was a dark planet of water.
So on day 1 God made the universe and the world
It days the Spirit of God was roaming in the world over the waters.
Then God made light separated the world in 1/2 with darkness and light. Light He called good. Named light "day" and dark "night."
And that was day 1.
There is no time period for day 1 it could have been 1000 years or a 24 hour day as we know it. God is not governed by time. And He didnt create time as we know it till day 4.
So on day 1, time didn't exist. Each day says there was morning and evening but time didn't exist so light and dark were divided in 2, but they werent coordinatef by the world spinning, it tumbled as earth stood floating without rotation in space.
Day 2 God placed the core and earth in the middle of the world. Separating water from water. Water covered the firmanent.
So this gives the idea that the world is round. Because it separated the water in 1/2 around it. Since this move on day 2 didn't create a land mass visible then it separated the water in the middle. Like describing the core and grounds below the water.
Authors of genesis seemed to understood the world is round. Because the expanse placed in the middle of the water would disperse water all around it. And also day 2 time still didn't exist.
So this could have been our world floating with light and dark tumbling in a manner of something round floating.
3rd day God gathered the water together "and let the land appear.
The core with land elevations were exposed and then He let vegetation and growth occur. So some vegetation grew on the dark half, some grew on the light 1/2 of the world or there may have been shifting with light and darkness. Creating both vegetation that needs light and some that grow in darker climates.Or the tumbling was pretty even. God put in motion according to Genesis every seed reseeding producing more of its kind.
That was the 3rd day again time as we know it still doesn't exist.
4th day
God put everything in place for day and night stars, sun, moon.
And separated day from night. God placed the Sun Moon stars
and appointed the lower light to govern the night and the brighter
to govern the day, and made days weeks and years. The world started spinning and orbiting and God created time as we know it. And so time began.
5th day
God made the fish and birds of every kind and blessed them.
6th Animals of every kind after their kind. And also man and woman.
The days are spelled out with basic foundation as factual documentation, then the story of the days are expanded on and
told with greater details.
Its interesting the Garden was a designated area, God made man then went and planted the garden, and then the Lord put man into
it. But man was made from the ground dust outside the garden.
And God brought forth animals then made eve from out of man's side.
A day is a time period. The text clearly states it was a day. The mystery is imaginary, the text is plain and clear, and there is nothing that says Adam was made from dust outside of the garden before he was placed in the garden. Jesus quoited from Genesis implying it was not mysterious but rather plainly stated. We were not there, just read it and take it as it is from the hand of God. There is plenty of scientific facts supporting the literal six day Creation account and Noah's flood, there is no need to read into scripture things that are not there. What you'll end up doing is opening the door for more confusion and weakening your ability to present truth, casting doubt on the entire Bible by casting doubt on the Genesis account.
Look them up yourself. I presented about a dozen, maybe two dozen, here a while back and they were totally ignored, the same as they are ignored in your classrooms. It's censorship.
Slappy my friend, I respect you enough for the strengths of your character. I do not respect any form of sin or beliefs which are based on lies. Evolution is a lie, you don't need it in any field of science. It's a lie promoted as an excuse for immorality, that's all it is.
You won't destroy anything. Evolution and big bang believers stand on one side of speculation when contrary views hold up as well or better in observable and repeatable science. You can't observe evolution or the big bang, you can only believe in them. I don't need for you to provide links, I can find the stuff easily enough myself and I've probably read on all the subjects close to as much as yourself, at least close enough that nothing you present will require more than five minutes of my time to catch up on and review contrary data.....and I do not select my readings based on the beliefs of the writers. I look at both sides from sources on both sides, and the science used to support evolution and the big bang is far from conclusive. There is no need or reason to discount the literal six day creation story in Genesis. There is plenty of reason to discount evolution and the big bang.
I went through this with you before, I presented a dozen or two indisputable scientific facts which are contrary to evolution and the big bang. Because of those facts, evolution and the big bang should be considered as hypothesis which are more wishful thinking than they are scientific. And the wish is that the believer in evolution is not held to an objective moral standard by which their thoughts, words, and actions will be judged by their Creator.
As I recall, you argued with me on two or three points, but then when I posted a long list of about a dozen or so, you kinda said I got them from a biased source or something...I don't know, but nobody would argue on the points, everybody just ran away and that's modern education, censorship to avoid discussion of facts which contradict the religion of Naturalism in which you believe life is meaningless, has no real purpose, and no real value so it's ok to be promiscuous and kill babies before they are born after their mothers acted like cheap whores having fun not caring if they kill their baby to prevent responsibility.......but God keeps it on record still and nobody gets out in death. You are you forever, evolution is lying when they tell you death is the end of you. You didn't choose to be you, and you can't get of being you in death. You are not your body, you are not a hologram caused by chemical fizzes, you are in your body and you will be you when your body no longer functions in this world. God ordained you to be you because you are the only person who could ever be you. God wants you in Heaven forever in eternal life. Evolution is a religion of death, in which you believe everything has to die to make room for the new and improved things which have to die until one day some gods have taken over the universe and you think you can be one of them if you can get the science going fast enough........
sigh.....I don't want to fight with you my friend, and I don't want you to feel disrespected by me, but you cannot expect me to believe in evolution or the big bang. Long before I was a Christian, which happened when I was 23, even as a little child I saw the implications of evolution and big bang theory and knew they were trying to make me believe things they really have no way of knowing themselves. And for your "all babies are atheists by default" argument, before I knew how to talk I clearly remembering witnessing evil and throwing a tempter tantrum over it because I knew God had to be there watching what they were doing and I knew I was His because He caused me to exist, in the name of God I wanted the evil to stop. I could have been killed, that did not matter. I knew I came from God and knew I would return to him if the evil overpowered me. Without words I knew all of that, a tiny baby and I remember it clearly. Babies are from God and owned by God, on loan to their parents. And just think, if I had been aborted, who else would you get this stuff from?
With all due respect for your level of education, let me refer you to Dr.Keith H. Wanser. I'm sure you will appreciate his amazing accomplishments of education and contributions of applied science. He will speak on your highly educated level explaining the facts of science which led him to believe the six day creation account in Genesis is ........ahhhh, what's the word, can't think of the word, means valid, credible, workable, feasable, justifiable, verifiable.........
Dr. Wanser is professor of physics, California State University, Fullerton. He holds a B.A. in physics from California State University, an M.A. in physics from the University of California, Irvine, and a Ph.D. in condensed matter physics from the University of California, Irvine. Dr. Wanser, who specializes in novel and ultrasensitive optical fiber sensor devices, components and techniques, has published over 30 refereed and 18 other technical papers and holds seven U.S. patents. In 1996 he was the recipient of the School of Natural Sciences and Mathematics Outstanding Research Award.
Here is 50 Ph.D. scientists explaining the facts I would present. Pardon me for being a bit lazy, but if you want to read it here it is. I really don't want to fight about it, I tried to present this stuff before and everybody on this site just vanished from the discussion. Nobody had the backbone to look at the vast amount of scientific evidence against evolution and the big bang. Because I tried hard to get people to look at it before, I'm not going to try the same way again. If I keep doing what I always did, I'll get what I always got........so I'm not trying to brush you off by saying find the stuff yourself, I simply think based on what happened before that you will get stuck arguing about open systems (batteries) and silly snowflakes and not look at the myriad of scientific evidence contradictory to evolution and the big bang.
While he presents some interessting stuff, I would hardly call it anything close to proof of a six-day Creation, or a Young Earth. He offers only conjecture. Some of his alleged "proof" that our dating systems are wrong is pretty comical, Saint.
Like when he said that just becasue he saw (anectdotal, btw) some sort of stalagtite-forms growing near his home in Alexandria, VA that those millions-year-old ones in Carlsbad had to be young too! He also admits early in the article that since turing religious as a youngster he has been intent on discrediting science dating methods so as to make their dates coincide with his beloved Genesis.
This is as good as admitting that he has cherry-picked and engaged in comfirmation bias. Like with the stalagtites.
He fell to the only tactic of arguing with our radiometric dating methods that the Creationists have: to try and discredit them by saying they are flawed. And by in turn HYPOTHOSIZING that the breakdown of certain elements were different back in biblical times than they are now! This idea (not even a hypothesis, really) has NO merit whatsoever. there is NO reason to think that element breakdown would be different. It's like surmising that the laws of physics at one time broke down and were different than they are now!
Gee! Maybe at one time gravity was weaker and we could all fly!
Wanser said this..........."Possible scenarios of intense neutrino and/or gamma ray fluxes due to various supernova and stellar disturbances (possibly during Noah’s Flood) may have contributed to the appearance of age when radioactive substances are examined by causing substantial radioactive decay in a very short time period, rather than over long periods of time at currently observable rates. Besides causing additional radioactive decay, such fluxes or increases in cosmic radiation could also have resulted in the rapid decrease in the human lifespan following the Flood, as recorded in Genesis. "
Please. What was the very first word there, Saint?
"Possible."
And then he goes on to NOT give ANY reason why those different scenarios in which known and studied elements should have once behaved differently than they do now.
He also only tries to discredit ONE form of radiometric dating.
I trust you do know that we have dozens of different forms? If you google "forms of radiometric dating" you will get a list that runs a few pages long! Many of them use checks and balances so as to measure different emissions in case a certain type is flawed.
That statement of comparing a day to a thousand years does not change Exodus 20:11 in which God Himself spoke (Ex 20:1...AND God spake all these words, saying,.....) and clearly stated that in six DAYS, not six thousand years, he made the heaven and earth and all that is in them. Six days is six days when the text says it's six days, and the Bible is consistent throughout regarding the six days of Creation.
God spoke Exodus 20:11 directly to Moses's face. When God says He created all things in six days, I say "wow", and you say, "God didn't really mean that, he was just using word play and being unclear about what He was saying". There is no reason to believe the Earth was not spinning the moment God created it, and He did create it in a moment by His will, He spoke it into existence in a moment. There is no logical or Biblical reason to add thousands of years between the days, or millions of years, or to say the Earth didn't spin before day 4.
The verse speaking of a day being as a thousand years to the LORD is in reference to His promised return. Applying it to Genesis 1 to say we really don't know if a day was a thousand years in Genesis 1 is out of context and out of faith.
That statement of comparing a day to a thousand years does not change Exodus 20:11 in which God Himself spoke (Ex 20:1...AND God spake all these words, saying,.....) and clearly stated that in six DAYS, not six thousand years, he made the heaven and earth and all that is in them. Six days is six days when the text says it's six days, and the Bible is consistent throughout regarding the six days of Creation.
God spoke Exodus 20:11 directly to Moses's face. When God says He created all things in six days, I say "wow", and you say, "God didn't really mean that, he was just using word play and being unclear about what He was saying". There is no reason to believe the Earth was not spinning the moment God created it, and He did create it in a moment by His will, He spoke it into existence in a moment. There is no logical or Biblical reason to add thousands of years between the days, or millions of years, or to say the Earth didn't spin before day 4.
The verse speaking of a day being as a thousand years to the LORD is in reference to His promised return. Applying it to Genesis 1 to say we really don't know if a day was a thousand years in Genesis 1 is out of context and is not believing God's word.
They still are days. They are days that have light and dark, but not sun or moon. They are days that have morning and evening.
However that completed whether they just simply coexistence and morning and evening coexisted simultaneously divided pretty much stationary. Or with some floating of position, or it was completed when a full turn was made transferring the light where darkness was and visa versa.
So either the pics I get are there was maybe 1000 years for each day till the 5th day, possibly the 4th day. And either light and darkness gradually tumbled changing light ad darkness position, or I it made full conversion meaning 1/2 the day was dark 1/2 was light - but this is least likely. Or the tumbling bounced the position often and frequently in a random pattern. And when the time equivalent of His 1 day was our thousand years He called it a day.
As far as spinning and 24 hours and seasons and years as we know it beginning. That's just reading. And knowing very basic science.
If God didn't put a Sun and moon untill day 4, then how was the world spinning in its current rotation.
Spinning around sun and placement the of moon is what makes 1 day. 24 hours.
It would also make sense why 300 foot trees are buried in the North Pole. Found through archeologist. And discussed also by creationist. My theory makes sense because our rotation didn't change. Those trees may have gotton there during the time the world floated in place in space. Because the Sun wasn't a factor and the earth rotating and its "equator" wouldn't exist to make areas of different climates to that degree. There may have been some paternity to the light creating some climate differences. But not divided by the equator as we know it.
Because we didn't likely change 120 degrees in rotation to the sun, so as to have the North Pole
Your hypothesis is not a theory, it's not Biblical, and it's not scientific. You don't believe the Bible so you have no business teaching it, you are not even teaching Bible you are only teaching our own beliefs independent of the Bible.
What creates 24 hours? And if the world was spinning and didn't just start spinning from the work God did on day 4, then what was the world spinning around?
Why do you not simply believe God when He said He created the heaven and the earth and all that are in them in six days? Why are you trying to change His word? Who do you think you are?
14 Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for [u]lights in the [v]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two [w]great lights, the greater [x]light [y]to govern the day, and the lesser [z]light [aa]to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the [ab]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and [ac]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
Why add to it? the evening and the morning were the first day. I woke up this morning and Lord willing, I'll go to sleep this evening and that is the end of another day if I make it that far.
You don't have to post the verses from Genesis in whatever fake version of God's word you are using. In verse 14, the correct word is "firmament", not "expanse".
Firmament lines up with modern physics as the fabric of space/time, the Higgs/Boson particle or whatever they call it. God knew what He was doing when He brought His word into English.
There is nothing in Genesis which states when the Earth started spinning. You are putting in things that are not there and are uncalled for. God's word is true, He created all things exactly as He said He did.
There was no such thing as a 24 hour day till God put it in place on day 4.
I don't think it's a earth shattering doctrine to think ether way.
In other words not every opinion of scripture is concerning.
If you think they all are 24 hour days, that's fine.
But I'm reading it and see time didn't exist as we know it till day 4.
So day 5 was the 1st 24 hour day.
In Psalms and in Peter it says that 1000 years is as 1 day.
It's saying that God is not governed by time and both of these scriptures in context refer back to "creation" in a portion of its text.
So maybe Peter and David knew something about those "days."
Do you really think God was governed by time? By time that He put in motion on the 4 th day for the benefit of those who were created?
He literally placed lights in the sky to "govern" time.
Do you think anything "governs" God?
He is the ruler who placed time as He created to govern created things like us.
I'm excited about the texts, because it answers mysteries. And answers evolution some. And it shows scripture to be much more advanced in knowledge that ONLY could have been God inspired.
Day 3 the works had no sun to spin around, and no order to govern day and night,
And seasons, Going around the sun produced as we know it.
The author understood the lights in the sky and the movement of the earth followed days and also seasons. Pretty advanced thought.
Psalms 90
2 Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. 3 You turn people back to dust, saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.” 4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
2 Peter 3
For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [a]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
Evening and morning are terms that mean day and night
And since 24 hours didn't exist yet they weren't divided by time as we know it.
When evening and morning are used the original means day night light dark without tome specific
Morning to morning and evening to evening are time specific because it speaks of time as time in day or night to same time day or night. From the rising of the Sun to the going down of the same the Lords name is to be praised
But morning and evening are general terms of during day or during night, or as in during light or during dark.
Psalm 30
5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime;
Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.
John 9: 4
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
God clearly stated that He created the heaven and the earth and all that is in them in six days. A day is not a thousand years. If you are trying to imply the verses you are quoting show a day in Genesis is not really a day, you are twisting the Bible into saying things it does not say by taking scripture out of context and abusing it to fit your non-Biblical teaching of a day not really being a day.
When God said the evening and the morning were the first day, that means it was the first evening and the first morning of the first day. To say 24 hours did not exist on the first day is lunacy. What makes you think you are smarter than God? He clearly said He created all things in six days. You are calling God a liar.
Chapter 20, verse 11 of Exodus clearly states God created all things in six days and rested on the seventh day. If you add millions of years, or thousands of years, then you are changing the Bible to "God created all things in many years and a few days", and casting doubt on the entire Bible by implying it is open to personally tailored beliefs suiting whichever sinner is reading it. Who do you think you are to change God's word? God keeps His word and does not allow people to change it. When you change it, it's no longer God's word but your own word fraudulently claiming to be God's word.
God said He created all things in six days. That is time as we know it. You are inventing unknowns claiming to know with NOTHING but your own imaginations to bolster your confusion of God's word.
the beginning of time was in Genesis 1:1. "IN THE BEGINNING....." That was the beginning. Time began in the beginning, not on day four. Your talking nonnsense.
If time did not begin until day four, how was the time counted for three days before day four? Try to use some common sense.
the beginning of time was in Genesis 1:1. "IN THE BEGINNING....." That was the beginning. Time began in the beginning, not on day four. Your talking nonnsense.
If time did not begin until day four, how was the time counted for three days before day four? Try to use some common sense.
Chapter 20, verse 11 of Exodus clearly states God created all things in six days and rested on the seventh day. If you add millions of years, then you are changing the Bible to "God created all things in millions of years and a few days", and casting doubt on the entire Bible by implying it is open to personally tailored beliefs suiting whichever sinner is reading it.
The curse following also gets interesting as you follow it through Cain and Abel
Cain and Able shows something different.
There are often sons compared through the prophets.
Cain and Able
"When the LORD accepted Abel's offering but not Cain's the latter became angry. God warned Cain about potential sin. But even so, Cain murdered Abel." (Gen. 4:4-9)
And God cursed Cain ...
Remember when I said before God we will both stand?
One will stand in their own hard hard work trying to please God and the other will stand in God's merit.
God favored the devotion of Able over Cain's and it drove Cain to murder Able.
But why wouldn't God favor hard labor to please Him? Because the fruits of flesh is cursed. Even the first fruits of cursed flesh can't please God. Because we are born from the cursed ground our 1st fruits regarding anything we do cannot please God!
Gen 3
"17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
"18 Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you And you will eat the plants of the field 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”
"22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."
Cain worked harder on his sacrifice, and he sacrificed more because his sacrafice was out of his first fruits of hard hard labor.
Cain is working through the curse.
"23 therefore the LORD God sent him (Adam) out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken." (To cultivate the ground he was taken from that now God cursed) And that would be with thorns and thistles and sweat. The ground he came from will forever fight him, and he will forever fight the ground.
So when Cain offered from the ground, he was offering from that which is cursed, as man is dust, dust from ground, groud is cursed.
Yet Able's sacrafice from the 1st fruits of his flock pleased God.
The flock was a provision by God. He provided the creatures, and He multiplied them. So Able just gave back to God what was given.
Able simply cared and nurtured them. Yet his sacrafice pleased God over the fruits of hard labor. Why? Because Able's was from the provision of God, and from simply Able's love of care for the flock and love for God.
Cain was working by brute force. Working the cursed ground, toiling against the curse day in and day out working hard against that which is cursed.
Cain's sacrafice was his work, his hard work! Abel's sacrafice was from his love and not from hard work at all!
Abel's offering was accepted because it was a blood offering. It was by the blood of innocent animals that God covered Adam and Eve's sin temporarily.
Able's sacrifice was in obedience to God's demand that sin be paid for, and it's cost is life. It was not about if Cain or Able loved God, there is nothing to show Cain did not love God. Cain was trying to please God but it was not what God wanted. It took a blood offering to atone for sin.
Your fake modern perversion of God's word dilutes the doctrine of the blood, and those fake Bibles are symptoms of your unbelief which causes you to add unbiblical stretches of millions of years to Genesis.
It's the blood of Christ which paid for our sins. It was at the cost of an animal's life that Adam and Eve were covered with it's skin, a covering for their sin. The life of the flesh is in the blood, God took an animals' life in place of Adam's life, it's blood was shed and Adam wore it's skin identifying himself with the slain animal. Salvation is through faith in the blood of the Lamb of God, not through how much we love God or work for Him.
By faith Able offered up a more excellent sacrifice. Able understood what the sacrifice meant and why it had to be God's way. You're whole post here mentions nothing of the real difference between Cain and Able's sacrifices......it's the blood.
God provided plants and multiplied them. Cain worked caring for the plants. It was the same with Able and the animals, that was their jobs. What Cain should have done was to buy a sacrificial animal from Able in exchange for fruit from his crops and offered up a blood sacrifice.
Whatever source you are getting your stuff from, if I had it in book form in my house I would burn it.
There are a few different applications of Biblical prophesy.
So you have "the 1st Adam brought into sin, the 2nd Adam brings us back to commune with God.
You have application of historical Biblical application, as history and as lesson, and then future prophetic application.
So Cain and Abel show the telling of the pleasing sacrafice of Jesus and the rejection and murder that told of Jesus' experience when He was to come. With that being a fulfilled prophesy. You may even have an end times application in.
Cain was marked by God, there is a mark in revelations, maybe not "the mark" so all would know him and not harm him.
And being a man who lived by his work which wrestled the ground for his survival, against the cursed ground from which man was made, and the ground man returns to. So he is a picture of living undwber the law, with judgement of hate and jealousy.
And the curse of Cain grows as the 7 times cursed are those who murder Cain. So its no wonder that in the end times love waxes cold. And no wonder civilizations have experiences so much hate routed in hate, greed, and power.
Cain and Abel are a picture also of works and grace. And also a picture of works under the law and faith.
And also Abel's sacrafice of the first fruits is the beginning of sacrifices in worship and attonement which God expanded i generations to come, which obviously pointed to Jesus.
I think you may be very condescending to people. You seem like a newer Christian Bible thumper. Even the 1st years combined with age those years can be harsh.
I believe the Bible. That's all the really matters. You are trying to change the Bible, and pushing heretical teachings adding a lot of stuff that is not there.
The Bible says I'm supposed to condescend to men of low estate. I'm coming down to your level trying to show you that somebody is teaching you lies and making your head big so you think you know God's word better than He knows it, you think you can explain His word better than He explains it.
In Jude we are told to earnestly contend for the faith, and it's simple, the truth is simple so that a child can understand and you are trying to make all kinds of complications by twisting words and taking scripture completely out of context. You are not a Bible believer, you are being blown by strange winds of strange doctrines and casting doubt on God's word. You need to be rebuked, you probably will remain proud and not hear it but I tried.
When I hear people like you explaining all kinds of gibberish like you are doing here, I have to doubt that the Spirit of God is in you, I have to doubt that you are saved because the Holy Spirit never goes against the Word of God and you are practically making it up as you go along....led by somebody who has got your head pumped up thinking you can explain God's word better than He can.
Use scripture prove yourself to be a Workman accurately handling the word.
You don't use scripture, you must not know it well. READ IT!
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 22Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
I have already proved you are ignoring the Bible and making up stuff to suit your own feelings. The fact that you won't concede only means you won't concede.
I don't want to fight with you, I think it's a shame the way you trash the Bible and replace it with your own ideas.
What you are teaching is not Biblical, why do you make no mention of the gospel, the deity of Christ, His bodily resurrection, and the reality of Hell fire?
As far as blood I have many statement referring to the work of the cross. The attonement and cleansing from Jesus' blood.
Without the blood there is no cleansing of sin.
We have the unblemished lamb, Jesus. Isaiah 53 and the Passover story clearly shows we are in the "Arc" "our lives hidden in Christ" sealed with His blood, on the door posts of us temples, as Egypt is swept away, we stand in Him. Sealed with the Holy Spirit.
So I don't know where you got any of that.
You are not being a good witness by constantly arguing and judging people as heretics the way you do.
You said "So when Cain offered from the ground, he was offering from that which is cursed, as man is dust, dust from ground, groud is cursed."
The animals are under the curse of sin and death the same as the ground. The whole creation is under the curse of sin at this time. The difference in Cain and Able's sacrifice was the life's blood of the animal which represented the blood of the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.
Able believed God, and by faith offered up a more excellent sacrifice. Able understood what God wanted and obeyed, Cain tried to do it his own way, not understanding why his way was wrong when he gave God his best.
Actually that's not true. All Creation groans waiting for the children of God to be revealed. The Snake was cursed to be lower than all the animals.
And if the account is accurate in wording, it says man was made then God went and prepped a garden for him. And then God placed man in it
Then He made and brought the animals before Adam, none a suitable companion. He made Eve from Adam. And Adam was made from dust outside of the garden.
So nature is neutral and in subjection to futility . And we have many scriptures that say nature praises God, Nature doesn't choose anything. And it glorifies God because it knows there is one.
Here is God shutting out of the garden.
Gen 3
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Here is the wording of the curses:
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life
The snake was cursed more. The animals carried a burden of the curse in subjection to God's will.
And the snake eating the cursed ground, the dust.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Here is mans curse, of course Eves was child birth and subjection.
But for the man -
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
They were from the ground of the garden. So nature praises God. Nature is neutral, the ground is cursed. Man is cursed to work with toil, it would be with difficulty with the ground ultimately winning, in death returning to the ground. So you live fighting it and you die trapped in it.
Ok, so you got me on the fact that man was created and then placed in the garden after God planted the garden. Now tell me, why do you want to follow the clear and simple wording in this verse but you want to complicate the story of Creation by saying we really don't know what a day is, and you insist it was not a literal 24 hour day and than add all kinds of scripture taken completely out of context to support your rejection of the plain and simple wording from God's own mouth when in Exodus 20:11 God said He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days?
Nature is subject to vanity, not futility, because of sin, it's falling apart because of sin, if God does not step in and stop the process it will eventually all disintegrate, every particle in the entire universe will fall apart and all of creation will dissipate. It was the cost of allowing Adam and Eve to continue in this world in the death they earned, rather than executing them on the spot and leaving them in Hell where sin belongs. Death overshadows all of creation because justice demands it, God cannot allow Adam and Eve to remain in a living world, we are in a dying world, we are in the first death, the Lake of Fire is the Second Death.
I notice two things about your doctrine, you avoid talking about the blood which is the life of the flesh and the blood of Christ which was shed for the remission of sins, and you avoid talking about the penalty of sin which is eternal condemnation in Hell's fire. I really doubt that you are saved, and I doubt that anybody except those in whatever your cult is can pretend to understand your doctrine.
The whole creation groans because sin messed it up, it's all disintegrating because of sin, man's sin. The only way God could keep man in Creation was by death permeating creation, and it started when God took the skins of an animal, a blood sacrifice picturing the Lord's blood which we are saved by faith in His blood. God's other choice was to limit death to the one who deserved it, Adam, and Eve would have gone in death to, both of them, permanently dead in Hell forever. Then there would have been no need to cover their sins with the skin of a creature. The creature and the creation go together, lost people today who believe in evolution worship and serve the CREATURE , or the creation, rather than the Creator.
It is correct that it was created in 6 days and the 7th He rested.
I am merely stating that what God considers 1 day, and our natural minds on application of 1 day are different.
I believe God was capable of doing it in 24 hours, but I don't think He did.
God is eternal, no beginning and no end.
So He had billions of years to do what He could have quickly done in 24 hours.
And we know He could have because He brought forth very complicated life forms on days 5 and 6.
The question isn't what God could have done, the question is what did God do?
God is patient, and we know that many miracles of God happened by a recipe or a series of events building up to His purposed design.
God is a Creator. So if we look at Him as a Creator, we know that creating is 1st thinking, drawing plans, designing, gathering materials, possibly excavating, preparing a foundation, sketching, building upon it, adding color, redesigning, reshaping, outlining, clarifying, expanding, differentiating, filling in details, giving it depth, completing it, signing it, presenting it, and enjoying it.
We know God builds, precept upon precept, prophesy to fulfilment, and God is known for His Patience. So when creating it would make sense that He would establish creation through a similar process.
So yes they were 6 days, but God created time. He Himself is timeless! Eternal! Without a beginning and without an end.
From 1 end of galaxies to the other end of galaxies
He is the Creator. The Archetetct!
So I don't think by embracing the idea of what 1 day meant in Genesis 1 is heretic theology. I think it may be closer to sound doctrine than actual 24 hour days.
Also when it comes to plants and vegetation throughout ALL the scriptures, these things are left to grow. Not forced but to establish a seed by God and then patient growth by God. We see God's patience for growth in many parables by Jesus, like the wheat and the tares.
There are a few things God left to natural growth. In nature specifically, but then also shown through our understanding as the created ones, we can see them and easily God can give us understanding in spiritual applications. The spiritual precepts follow follow nature's examples. And growth is left to its own time. And everything that jumped into being is immediate creation. But vegitation and the foundation of creation is left to eternal time for growth. The creations that unfold in due time without jumping into being are Heavens and Earth, Water, Light, Darkness, Ground or Foundation, Oxygen, Air, Atmosphere, Gravity, Fruits, Vegetables, Grains, Seeding, Planting, Growing, and Physical Reproduction ie... 9 months to grow a baby.
Out of this list the only growth that has time attached as a measurement is
"Be fruitful and multiply"
The 1st reproducing command He gave was to nature. But He didn't say to growth to "be fruitful and multiply to vegitation." He said told vegitation to follow a natural course, be orderly, re-seed, and simply grow. And also through this process He put into the earth every natural resource needed to sustain our lives. So aside from the plant growth showing God's spiritual implications, it also shows the depths of God's practical applications.
The only instance I recall off the top of my head, Im sure there are others, vegitation growing by a command of God, also withered as fast as it grew by God's command. And that was in the story of Jonah's shade tree. The tree didn't remain because it had no depth in roots.
It was a mere object lesson. Showing God can create growth, but the patience of God remains longer, and He makes roots deep. As He was showing His Patience and Mercy for Nineveh and for Jonah. Also recall the parable of the sower, 1 doesn't take root, 1 wither without depth, and the other bears fruit that remains because it's rooted in depth.
So God established growth, but not superficial. He established depth that reseeds and causes new growth with depth, and in its own time, however long it takes, God gives it eternal time. But only "1 day" of eternal time.
"Genesis 1: 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.
He did not use the term "be fruitful and multiply" till day 5. He applied the phrase to creatures birds, fish, animals, and man. Applying the phrase to creations that He had completed in 1 day of man's time, governed by time made for and given to man.
So we may number our days.
Deut 11: 21 "so that your days are multiplied, and the days of your sons, on the ground which Jehovah hath sworn to your fathers to give to them, as the days of
the heavens on the earth."
When the 1st creations appeared in completed form. God used the term "Be Fruitful and ..."
Genesis 1: 22 "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day." And "Genesis 1: 24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
Ecc 3
1 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven—
2 A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
3 A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4 A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.
5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7 A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.
8 A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace.
9 What profit is there to the worker from that in which he toils? 10I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves.
God Set Eternity in the Heart of Man
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
As far as blood I have many statement referring to the work of the cross. The attonement and cleansing from Jesus' blood. Without the blood there is no cleansing of sin. We have the unblemished lamb. Isaiah 53 and the Passover story clearly shows we are in the "Arc" "our lives hidden in Christ" sealed with His blood, on the door posts of us temples, as Egypt is swept away, we stand in Him. Sealed with the Holy Spirit.
So I don't know where you got any of that.
We have had discussions before, and you've been quick with statements like that. Calling me a heretic and denouncing me because I am a woman.
But even that scripture you seem to have taken without context.
You should re-read it. I won't say much to interpret it for you, other than it was a letter by Paul. And the entire letter addressed being considerate in love for each other, and not making others stumble. It was about some with weak conciences, and also about differences in cultures.
So read 1 Corinthians again, and pay close attention to the letter itself. Then rebook at the scriptures pertaining to women in that chapter, see what Paul is actually saying.
The final statement in the portion about women, is "11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.
As far as nature is cursed, its actually neutral. Its purpose was for the children of God.
Its subjected for a time vanity, futility, whatever. It is in subjection groaning for the New Heaven an New Earth. When the children of God will be revealed.
Nature proclaims the Glory of God, it praises God, it groans waiting for God. Nature is not evil, nor is it cursed. The ground man was made from was cursed, everything that comes from the toil of man is cursed. But the flood cleansed the ground.
And its not complicated. Its simple. It follows a logical order and has deep spiritual truths that you must be childlike to understand.
Being overly simplistic takes more thought. And we have possibly alienated science needlessly. But God was clear that knowledge and understanding would increase.
- I think that's in Daniel.
After the flood God said He will no longer curse the ground.
So the flood was cleansing. Genesis 8: 20 "Then Noah built an altar to the LORD,
and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings
on the altar." So I don't have thoughts or study on what this means off the top of my head, but I do know there will be a New Jerusalem, A new Heaven and a New Earth.
21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
22“While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”
I know the dust or the ground will bring a 2nd resurection.
There was a 1st resurection after Jesus rose from the dead.
But I don't have a clear picture of "Doctrines" maybe you have in site to give me on these matters. But you may want to re-visit and re-look outside of the "box of doctrines" because there are sound doctrines, but also there is revelations. The Helper was given for many jobs in our lives and in the world, but He also speaks mysteries and gives understanding that is not for the natural mind.
I don't suggest you be driven by "every wind of doctrine."
But the Spirit is also wind!
In Acts-
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
In John-
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
John the Baptist said:
”30“He must increase, but I must decrease.
31“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32“What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
science which claims millions or billions of years is false science and we are not supposed to support lies.
You skipped over the part where Paul says the woman should not usurp authority over the man. Besides that point, your doctrine is so far off on many points it would be silly for me to try to answer them all since you just ignore solid reasoning and jump to another topic......and I hate to say it, but your feminine instincts are in play here.
There is nothing that says the flood cleansed the ground, and their is nothing that says God lifted the curse placed on the ground when Adam sinned. A lot of your stuff is heretical, you keep adding more and more of your own feelings, adding things to the Bible that are not there, and I want to know who taught you to do that? You are adding things to the Bible which are not there in order to make yourself feel better in your methods of trying to persuade others, well intended but based on your feelings rather than on the Word of God, you are changing the Bible and God does not give permission to change His word. You are using perverted fake Bibles which have changed God's word, then you are adding your own changes as you go along. Somebody taught you this stuff or you are making it up as you go along. I heard it before, I considered this doctrine long ago and it does not hold up logically to the word of God.
No, I"m a man. I do not have women in authority over me to show me how to walk with God. How come the only time in Genesis where God spoke to Eve was when He called her on the carpet for her role in getting Adam to eat the forbidden fruit?
God walked and talked with Adam in the garden, and Adam instructed Eve. The serpent, Satan, cast doubt in Eve's mind about what God had said to Adam and Adam had told Eve. Eve did not know what God had said, she said God had said not to touch the fruit. Eve added that part herself, maybe Adam told her not even to touch it, but there is nothing in the Bible which says God told anybody not to touch the fruit. Like Eve, you are adding things to the word of God which are not there, and like Eve you should be in obedience to your husband and not going off in your own feelings where you can be deceived.
Adam would have done well to turn his back on Eve after she sinned. I believe Jesus would have died for Eve to save her from Hell, but Adam did not have to die with her. God would have taken another rib and made a new Eve for Adam.
If you won't listen to reason, you won't listen no matter how many chapter and verse references I post. I am not at all impressed by the way you take all kinds of passages out of context to support your additions to God's word, and less impressed by how you use so many passages out of context to support your deletions of God's word
I'll read Corinthians, again, after I finish reading Romans. I won't have a woman telling me what to read or when to read it. I wear pants, and my guess is you wear pants too. Sorry, pants are for men.
Man you have huge issues! You are wrong because of your fruit. So not even on the basis of doctrine.
Go to your pastor and let him read the stuff.
You need some guidance on how to love brothers and sisters in Christ, if you are even a Christian.
You are missing the point of abiding in Him. Your a mess!
A proud Bible thumping mess!
Here is the text about women in KJ version since even though you can't read well you insist on using old English!
Here are the highlights of context in 1 Corinthians
Paul is trying to establish order in a church that is living in a progressive liberal society!
I'll just pull out a few consecutive thoughts to show you
the CONTEXT of your misused and misguided interpretation of scripture!
Anyone want to chime in to help Saintnow read in context? I feel like I'm in an episode of PBS kid show Super Why!
Here are large clips sampling in the texts of Paul's letter in order they appear, of chapter and paragraph showing the letters context bringing order and removing divisions.
Letter discusses matters of concience regarding what to eat and customs and traditions
What is "clean to eat"
1 Corinthians 10
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: 26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 Corinthians 11
"Women in church, see last comment Paul concludes in this paragraph!"
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
1 Corinthians 11
Paul discusses having the Lord's supper together
17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1 Corinthians 12
Spiritual gifts, and doctrines and behaviors during church assemblies
Many Members, One Body
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Spiritual Gifts
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
The more excellent way continues in chapter 13
Love
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6;Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
No you would not like to see that or you would see it. It's not hard to find scientific evidence against the big band.........and I call it the big band because it's just a put on show, it's just entertainment for people who think they are justified to live and death relieves them of their troubles.
All of science can be explained in full accordance with six literal days of Creation and the Biblical account of the global flood. A lot of science has to be ignored to cling to evolution and the big bang. You do not want to see the science which contradicts your beliefs because you love your religion of naturalism more than you love life, you embrace death as you serve created things rather than the Creator who will deliver you from death into eternal life if you will believe on Him and trust Him, but all you do is fight against Him so all He can do is be against you, and if you keep up the fight you lose everything in Hell. God does not lose, you are lost and will be lost forever in the fire of Hell if you won't stop fighting against your Creator.
See for yourself if you get out of being you in death, and see for yourself if you have the right to exist outside of Hell. Prove you have the right to exist outside of Hell, to yourself of course because I know you do not have that right, I"m not asking you to prove anything for me. What you believe you will just have to try to prove it for yourself, won't you? Yep, that's what you are doing, dying all the way. I really feel sorry for you but you are consistently nasty toward me and I'll give you little if any of my time to read your words. I've had enough. God has more patience than me, the proof of that is the fact that you are not burning in Hell now. The more you are thankless toward God, the more His wrath is heaped up on you. Your life is not my problem, you are destroying yourself and you can't blame God for leaving you in your destruction. Fire awaits you and the way you are going I really think you will be consumed by it.
The burden of proof rests upon you and your claim that a place called Hell even exists. And then further that we who do not believe in such a place are condemned to it.
Because all of us non-believers--atheists--DO exist. We live and think and reason and have all the inherent rights of life as do you. Nature ans science do not mention anything like a Hell. Or a heaven. Those are places only found in books like the bible that were written thousands of years ago by men. Men who had their own beliefs and agendas. Thus...we modern atheists are in no way beholden to them.
Such as I am not beholden to the author of The Book of Narnia, or Greek Mythology, or the Wizard of Oz.
You might as well claim to us that we have no right to exist outside of Oz. Or no right to climb Mount Olympus.
You are ascribing to unproven Hebrew Mythology and then telling us to prove it is correct. Sorry...we have no need to prove anything. Our existence is all we need. Science tells us how life is began and sustained and what will kill it. Biology shows us in real life and real observations and real experiments what science explains.
Nowhere in this equation is a need of a Hell. It simply does not fit and had no proof. No purpose. It is a literary invention being thrust upon us, who with our science and our very lives have no need for it. The only people who DO are those who believe in the Bronze Age literature from which it comes.
So....instead of asking us to prove we have the right to exist outside of Hell, we would in turn ask you to prove that such a place even exists.
Can you do it without your Bible?
I sincerely doubt this. But I would welcome your attempt and I will listen to what you have to offer.
Nope, sorry, the burden of proof for the reality of Hell is not on me, I'm not asking for it, I don't need it. The people who say they need proof of Hell carry the burdn of finding that proof....and they generally don't want it and can only get it when it is forced upon them.
It's not my job to prove the reality of Hell. If you really want proof of Hell, just get down on your knees and say, "God, I think you are an idiot. You can't prove Hell is real". Pray that same prayer every day you have the ability and mental capacity to do it, and one day you will wake up in Hell and have your proof and you wont' be asking for proof anymore. The burden is not mine. The burden is on the person who says there is no Hell and their burden is to try to prove it for themselves....and they'll carry that burden to the grave if they have to die to get proof of Hell.
ORRRRR, just do nothing and wait and see, make no prayer, don't try to provoke God, just do nothing and keep telling yourself there is no Hell. I don't have to prove you wrong, you can find out for yourself, can't you?
If you really want proof of Hell, just get down on your knees and say, "God, I think you are an idiot. You can't prove Hell is real". Pray that same prayer every day you have the ability and mental capacity to do it, and one day you will wake up in Hell
Actually, I have done this. For fun and to win a bet with an old Christian friend of mine back in Canada when I was playing hockey I verbally and loudly mocked and challenged god on a daily basis for a few weeks. Even going so far as to look up into the heavens and spread my arms and say "here I am you murderous tyrant child-killer Yahweh!" and then flip him the bird and sign off with a "Hail Satan!"
Just for kicks. And to freak out my bible thumper friend.
And yet...................................
here I stand. No hell in sight. No rebuke from your god. Not even a hint of a sign.
Oh....you will answer this by saying something like, "Just wait, Slappy, your day will come and after you die you will wake up in Hell."
Ahh....but this is so easy to say. I can say the same thing to you right now that you will wake-up in DragonLand for mocking the Fire Breathing Sagan-esque Invisible Dragon I keep in my garage.
Yeah...I can say this to you and have just as much proof of it being a valid threat as your admonition to me of hell is.
So you have rested your case against God. It doesn't freak me out. I saw a little girl get killed by a car on the street, I'm sure she was not cursing God or asking for proof of Hell.......that was around ten years ago. My brother was killed on his motorcycle when I was 28, by an apparent drunk driver, hit and run, police could not prove it was that guy but we know it was him. One of my other brother's best friends brother was killed on the street by a car right in front of the house where I was hanging with buddies......we ran out to the street at the sound, we thought it was my other brother laying there, same hair......but it was my other brother's best friend's brother. My best friend's step brother was killed on that same stretch of road around that time......a real joker that guy was though he was seriously reading his Bible and trying to figure things out. A cousin of mine, 26 years old and seemingly healthy as a horse, dropped dead on the sidewalk as he was jogging. I could go on and on with true stories like this, and many more from the experiences of other people I know...many who were flatly told today could be their last chance to be saved and then they went out rejecting the Savior and were killed that very night in an accident. Some of the people here who got mad at me and then disappeared after I told they why and how to be saved......and I wonder where they went.
A friend of mine was driving when a thunderstorm was starting to kick up...guy riding his bike on the sidewalk as my friend was driving pass........suddenly BOOM!!! Lightning bold crashed right next to the guy on that bicycle. My friend rolled down his window and yelled as the shocked face on the bike, "SOMEBODY"S TRYING TO GET YOUR ATTENTION!!" The guy who yelled that is a fairly well known gospel singer, worked in home services on some extremely famous people's homes in the tri-country area, I can't name names but you would be impressed.....not sure if my singer buddy is still alive, old friend of my family.
I faced death more than once myself....gun pointed at my head, accidents, assaults, robberies....once I got robbed and beat up by a gang, as they strolled away knowing the police would come before long I yelled some good old fashioned Hell fire and brimstone preaching at them, told them they better get saved the same as I tell you. Your time is counting down to zero, and zero may come at any moment. Then, if you have not yet believed, you will get the proof you imply God is unable to deliver to you. Oh yeah, another true story I have to throw in here....the son of a friend of mine gets a knock in his door one day. Opens the door and there stands the man who a few days prior said they were working on organizing neighborhood watch......standing there with a shotgun pointed at my friend's son, was just a robber who cased victims by using the neighborhood watch story. The son lived but got maimed when he put up a fight.
And again, comparing Hell to dragon land is a straw man argument. Who cares if they wake up in dragon land? So they can be dragon fighters. Big deal. If Dragon land is real, who cares?. The only place you really don't want to be is in eternal fire frying like eternal sausage. The threat of Dragon land is not a valid comparison to Hell. Hell is the only place you really want to believe is imaginary and not real. Any other place would not be so bad to be concerned about. It's the same thing comparing God to the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Zeus.......who cares if those straw men are real? It's only God you really care about dispelling. Whenever people argue against God, they create a straw-man version which is not God but rather has faults and weaknesses which God has none of. That's what you are doing with places that are less than Hell and gods which are less than God.
It is not my job to prove God or Hell are real. It is my job to try to tell people how they can be saved. There is nothing I can do if you will not believe. There is plenty of evidence, plenty of reason to believe; dying should tell you that you need to be saved from dying, and common sense should tell you only God can save you.......and then reason should tell you that your sin has to be paid for and God Himself paid with His own blood because He loves you and wants you to be forgiven.....and then the goodness of God should lead you to repent of your sin because He is being patient with you and giving you time after you cursed Him.
You've stated your case against God and have rested your case I guess. Now it's only a matter of time before God answers you, isn't it? You think He won't answer? I hope you have time to think again. You can't expect God to be patient with you forever, He's already given you much more time than you deserve the way you taunt Him. I don't know why God allowed me to live the way I acted when I was younger, don't know why he kept me from getting killed or crippled so many times.....except that He had a plan for me of better things than I can make for myself. He has a plan for you also, but you are denying God so He can't give you His blessings and yet He is giving you time.....not wanting you to be in Hell. We both would be burning in Hell now if we got what we really deserve. It in only by the mercy of God that we are not consumed. The only thing new in this world is God's mercy..every moment of time we have is a gift we do not deserve. We are on borrowed time, and there is a reckoning coming. God Himself paid the price of our time as sinners, paid with His own blood on the cross so He is righteous to spare us judgment for a time, and righteous to condemn us in Hell forever if we will not seek His pardon believing He is risen from the dead.
So these things I'm saying should be for you a rebuke from God, a hint of a sign of Judgement coming, but God will not force you to hear or to see. If you want a reality void of God's correction and void of God's goodness, then you won't be corrected and you will find nothing to indicate any sign from God that He is good...He is giving you what you want, but the only place you can really have what you want now is in the fire of Hell and God really does not want to give you what you want or you would be there now........and the only reason anybody rejects God is because of their own lusts for money, sex, or power, they don't want God telling them what to do or what not to do; so there is no way they can know the blessings of God........and God says "peace, peace, to them that are afar, and to them that are near", but you wont have it, will you? You love the pleasures of feeling strong and great and independent more than you love life, don't you? You just want to do your own thing and defy God all the way into eternity, don't you? If you rest your case this way forever, there will be no rest for you in Hell, sorry friend.
See my friend, the way you have acted toward God, can you blame Him if He leaves you in Hell? You can, but it won't get you out. In Proverbs it says God will laugh at your calamity, and not hear when you cry out to Him because you rejected all of His counsel.
For this reply, I want to focus on one of your many assertions which you carry the burden of proof for.
"Because all of us non-believers--atheists--DO exist. We live and think and reason and have all the inherent rights of life as do you."
My friend, I am glad you exist. I'm glad everybody exists. I'm glad my enemies exist. We all have the right to exist because God caused us to exist and the right to exist cannot be denied or taken away. It's God's gift. But don't you see, none of us has the right to live, it is right that we should die. We all deserve to die and we are all dying. If we had the right to live, we would not be dying. I understand the US Constitution or the Declaration of Independence says we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but in reality we have none of those rights. If we have the right to live, be free, or pursue happiness, then who do we sue when we are deprived of life, freedom, or our ability to pursue happiness?
I like to focus my arguments on simple common sense logic based on truth. Jesus said "I am the truth", and "if you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". True freedom comes only from God and is not lost in death. We do not have an inherent right to life. Time is a gift we do not deserve. If we have the right to it, or if we deserve it, that's means it's unfair that it ends......so who do we sue over it when a loved one is taking away and they stand around singing "Undertaker, undertake, won't you please drive slow. For the body, you're a haulin', oh I hate to see it go. Will the circle be unbroken by and by, Lord, by and by? I have never heard of them standing around trying to figure out how to sue God for not giving them their rights.
Oh, and I scanned through your many assertions and see you again comparing Hell to Oz or Mount Olympus. Who cares if we must to to Oz or if we have no right to climb mount Olympus? I don't care if those places are real, they won't bother me. The only place you really care to deny is Hell. Who cares if La La land is real, who cares if the dark side of the moon is where lunatics hide at night before they come out to attack during full moons? Let's suppose they do.......so what? can't do anything about it, can I? why should I? death is going to take this body down one way or another, why should I care if I have to go to Oz or the dark side of the moon or Narnia or NeverNever land (though that one would be very scary thinking I'd be in Michael Jackson's lair, I really do hope I have the right to exist outside of that place forever.). The only place we really want to believe we have the right to exist outside of is Hell. Any place other than Hell would not be so bad as Hell, and that would be ok and much desired by people who are in Hell now.
It's the same as comparing God to Zeus or the Filleted Spaghetti Monster or the Wizard of Oz........who cares if those things are real? If they are all real right now, that's ok with me (though of course we know they are real only in cartoons). God is not like those things. Those things we are ok with. It's only God who you really want to deny. If Zeus or the Flayed Spaghetti Monster or the Wizard of Oz are really out there somewhere over the rainbow where skies are blue, the only thing you don't want to be there is God who made all things. Your Narnia or Zeus argument is a straw man argument.
You sir! Are a complete hypocrite! You preach about how they are to treat each other like they would wish to be treated but then tear their throats out! God never ever taunted people about hell! Hell is too terrible and cruel to want to taunt them about it the way you do! All lives are your problem! It is our duty as a human being to support one another as a HUMAN BEING! Not because we believe in God must we support one another but because of the fundamental essence that allows us to continue living! To work together.. My friend, I am sure God would rather you take different ways to attempt to show them the grace and love of God. But by telling them that they are damned to hell is not the way! See how many lives you save versus those who teach love! Good God!
You who suffers from inequality! You are a complete sinner who is in danger of Hell and needs to be saved. God is the Savior, Jesus Christ is His name, He died for you, paid your price with His own blood offering you forgiveness as He is risen from the dead and able and willing to forgive all of your sin if you will agree you deserve to die and burn in Hell, repent of all your sin, and turn away from it to the Living God and let him be your life. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from Hell. He (or she, which probably is you since you seem to feel unequal) who believes on the Son is passed from death into life everlasting. He (or she) that believes not is condemned.
Excuse me whiner, please show where I preached about how they are to treat each other? Or are you lying, liar? And bonehead, if you will read the gospels, you'll see that Jesus was very blunt and repeated his warnings of Hell when he dealt with those who hate Him.
What good is love if evil is tolerated? What good is your lying rant on me? Liar, liar, pants are on fire.
There are several people on here I do everything I can to get them to leave me alone, and you seem to want to be in that club, so why don't you take a hike?
See for yourself if you get out of being you in death, and see for yourself if you have the right to exist outside of Hell. Prove you have the right to exist outside of Hell, to yourself of course because I know you do not have that right, I"m not asking you to prove anything for me. What you believe you will just have to try to prove it for yourself, won't you? Yep, that's what you are doing, dying all the way. I really feel sorry for you but you are consistently nasty toward me and I'll give you little if any of my time to read your words. I've had enough. God has more patience than me, the proof of that is the fact that you are not burning in Hell now. The more you are thankless toward God, the more His wrath is heaped up on you. Your life is not my problem, you are destroying yourself and you can't blame God for leaving you in your destruction. Fire awaits you while you reject the Savior who will not be patient with you forever, and the way you are going I really think you will be consumed in the fire dying forever as you are dying now demanding proof that Hell is hot and burns against sin forever. Enjoy all your sin while you can if that's the way you want to go out.
Your rejection of truth does not make your ignorance my burden of proof. Prove for yourself if there is no Hell as you believe, and there is only one way you can prove that......take a flying leap and see if you don't end up in the fire. I have no burden of proof, it's on you, not me. I'm walking away, you are not my burden.
You are dying and you say there is no proof of Hell. The burden of proof is on you to verify your assertion. I don't have to prove anything, you can find out for yourself....fool.
You're the one asking for proof, I think you have the burden to find it....and you will sooner or later get the proof you say is not there. All I have to do is let you find out for yourself...have a nice trip.
Yes. The person making the claim bears the burden of proof. I've been in real moderated debates between two debate teams in academic settings, and that is always how it goes. The person making the claim has the burden of proof; Not the side that claims to be the surest. That's not how debates work. Claiming to have evidence, and then refusing after being requested to provide that evidence will cause you to lose any real debate or at the very least cripple your argument beyond repair.
You say there is no Hell, the only way you can prove it is by dying and seeing for yourself. Asking me to believe you is silly. You have no choice but to find out for yourself, and you are trying to avoid your burden of proof. I'm not asking for proof, you are. I'm not asking you to prove there is no Hell, you are telling me there is none so PROVE IT YOU IDIOT. Go prove it. Take a flying leap and see where you land.
The only evidence of Hell you will accept is to find yourself unable to get out of the fire. You want proof? It's coming. Just wait and see. Demanding proof now is asking for God to execute and leave you in Hell now. You're a fool.
If you want to talk about that start another debate, or unban me from the one you already started and I'd be happy to discuss it. I'm asking for evidence for a specific claim you made in this thread. You either have evidence for that claim or you don't.
Do you expect me to pull Hell out of my back pocket and stick in your face? The proof you are asking for is coming, and you'll be sorry you get it after insisting it is not possible. Believe it or not.
You don't want the evidence or you would use your lazy ignorant fingers and do a little googling of "science against the big bang and billions of years of time".
Why don't you go take a long flying leap and see if you don't end up in Hell? Or take a long walk, maybe a hundred years long, and see if does not lead you to Hell? Have a nice trip. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, and it's a lot more fun talking to my dog although I do get a kick out of how you grind your teeth over me pointing out your futility.
You don't want the evidence or you would use your lazy ignorant fingers and do a little googling of "science against the big bang and billions of years of time".
I want evidence, which is why I asked for it. If I didn't want it, I wouldn't have asked for it, and also why you never ask for evidence. Because you have no intention of reading any material that might challenge your dogmatic view point which you've delicately balanced your sense of meaning, self-worth, and existential purpose on which is why you will never think critically about it. You claimed to have scientific evidence that the Universe cannot be more than a million years old, and you claimed that it was easy to find. So from where comes you hesitation?
Keep insisting you don't need to be saved and see if you wake up in Hell. You say you are ok with death, prove it. As long as you are running your mouth, you have not proved it. See if you don't wake up in Hell.
As Jace so aptly put "For not being your problem, you seem much more concerned about it than I am."
Hell wasn't the point of my contention, so you can insist all you like, but I'm going to need you to present evidence for your claim, which you said was so easy to find. Your inability to present it, tells a very different story.
Jace is a sodomite who hopes to escape reality in death.. I don't read his stuff and I'm not reading yours. I insist you prove you have the right to remain outside of Hell. If you believe there is no Hell, that does not prove you have the right to remain outside of if. I also insist you prove you are not a fool. If you say there is no God, you are a fool. I insist ............ah, I insist is a joke. You are not God, go insist somewhere else.
Hell is the point of your contention, you are contending that you have the right to live outside of Hell. Prove it. Your dying proves you wrong, but go ahead and try to prove you have the right to exist outside of Hell. You're going to find out you are wrong, there is no need for me to prove anything. Believe it or not.
You want God to be gone so Hell is gone, and your life is justified and your death is ok. Wrongo, Bobby boy.....death is justice and your life is lost, and God is still on His throne and Hell still confines sinners and you will be there before too long if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Prove me wrong, find out for yourself.
Your willful ignorance precludes evidence, so go on and try to prove you have the right to live outside of Hell. I don't need to be here, don't really want to bother watching you destroy yourself.
I say it is, you say it's not...........what are we talking about? This is pitiful, it's becoming more and more childish. You have to prove you have the right to live outside of Hell, or you burn in Hell forever, believe it or not. I'll leave you with that. Have fun trying to make God void and deny Him of Justice
Bob, the Bible talks a lot about fools........no point in arguing with them. If you want evidence Hell is real, you don't have to pester me about it, just wait and you will get your evidence.
at least I don't see you cussing, but it still seems like you are bitter and grumpy and it's tiring so I don't much read your stuff anymore.
You don't want evidence, you want to believe you have the right to exist outside of Hell and only the fire of Hell with you in it can make you doubt your rock head
When it comes to debate I find that cooler heads prevail.
but it still seems like you are bitter and grumpy
You confuse my irritation at you specifically as a general attitude about life. On the contrary, I am quite content with my station in life. I have done quite well for myself. I've had the distinct opportunity to learn from those smarter than myself, to help those less fortunate than myself. I've crossed oceans and continents, run half marathons, and hiked at least one mountain. Not bad for a poor boy raised by a widowed mother. I can sit in my reclining chair, feet on my coffee table, and read my books about history. That is bliss.
What is not blissful is listening to some pigheaded old man cocksure of his own rightness, launching torrents of indignities and vitriol at any unfortunate enough to cross his path that do not share his narrow dogmatic views. You do more to slander Christianity than anyone else here could ever hope to do. I come to createdebate because I see debate as a competition of wits and intellect, and as a competitive person I enjoy it, but there is no sport in "debating" with you because you don't debate. It's like playing chess with someone who doesn't understand the rules, and just knocks the pieces about.
I don't much read your stuff anymore
And yet you continue to reply. Sometimes multiple times. Sometimes to posts that are several days old.
You don't want evidence
If I don't want evidence then why am I asking for it and why are you refusing to provide it?
you want to believe you have the right to exist outside of Hell
As much as you appear to want me to agonize over my rejection of Christianity, I don't, no more than you agonize over your rejection of Hinduism.
So at least you admit you are irritated. That's good, because maybe you will wake up and see the danger you are in and get saved from Hell before it's too late.
Now, if it irritates you that I'm not likely to read more than a few words from you, and I have read no farther in your post here than what I have responded to, then be irritated.
A message from the heart to debaters who fight in favor of evolution. Forst of all for the purpose of debate, clarity of terms is important.
Adaptation is not evolution no matter how you define it. The inclusive definition needs to be removed for the origin debate. So we are clear we are speaking from onset!
Adaptation takes a formed life form and adapts within its own fully formed makeup. It doesnt adapt by becoming a different creature.
Evolution defined as used to describe the establishment of life and nature as we sknow it is not adaptation. As a term used in the debate of Creator vs self creation of evolution.
So please stick to the definition. Adaptation is subtle. Evolution is creative in a foundational sense
Adaptation would be darkening of pigmentstion or lengthening a nose to adapt to changing atmosphere. But there is no drastic changes needed for evolution.
I dont argue and poke fun out of a dislike for you. I am hoping at some point you will question reasonably and logically some of the things you accepy as truth and isnt founded in science or logic or reasoning.
I am not being mean or cruel, I'm challenging you for a greater purpose, to question and weigh reasonably.
Like evolution starts aftwr life forms are already in process and builds on it, balancing nature in the process to foster the evolving life forms and to support its progressive action to its current presentation.
Yet when proof of the Bible has connections confirmed, in front of your face, it is denied.
Arent these connections similar. Yet at least with the Bible evidence is tangable and visible, and not just assumptive, as seen in the foundation of the biginning of life, the first life form that assembled itself to start with, then the balancing act needed to progress from the beginning.
Neither of these at the foundation are logical, no matter what biology connects similarities, and no matter what adaptations we see after the fact of a living thing at its completion.
There is only evidence of biological simillarites. Not sound science in the beginning of the first formed living thing. Nor in the balance required beyond that, with entropy working against it from the creation of the first cell, and naturally beyond that!
Creatures with eyes have eye genes. But its a big jump to then say life formed and stabilized out of nonliving matter.
Its a religion of idiots.
Its the greatest insult to the Creator. The actual creator.
Man being a god created himself out of a process from nothing.
Man breathed life into himself out of evolving from a combination of dead matter.
Not even another god, a nothing god ... the earth was void, unformed, darkness over the deep. Into nothing He brought forth life, into chaos He established the balance for life to continue.
And evolution is the god nothing. The self god, nature and man created self by selection of the best. The self made man, evolved from nothing.
In Bible Codes, some are far out and take it far out. But some are a signature of Divine Authorship. And these ones are definitely signatures as if He etched His Word with His own hand.
Pi found in Genesis 1: 1 and adv math e found in John 1: 1.
These aren't spread out, found in difficulty, and in need of twisting. These two adv math codes are found, each found using within one verse. And each one found separately in chapter one of two seperate books, written in two separate millennials, in written in two separate languages. And the nature of interpretation works with what is there from the ancient text.
And the odds of them occurring at any point at all within all 66 books of the Bible is in probabilities of unreasonable proportions.
What do you think is the probability of a few of these together found coded in the Bible? If just musing at first glance, wouldn't you say, " no way?" I'm not even saying in the whole Bible. What is the probability all these are found in only six books out if 66?
As for me, I dont think a calculation is needed to tell me that is an unreasonable probability in calculations of a snowflakes chance in Hell!
Even crazier, pi and e are coded in two different languages, Hebrew for Jews and Greek was a time period of the Gospel's progression out to the Gentiles.
And both verses state "In the beginning," so they each speak of a time period of Creation and in Jesus as the Creator. And advanced math equations not known yet for 1000s of years to come.
In Genesis 1: 1 pi equation is encoded, in creation of the world and universe and in God stitching prophesy into appointed times to bring Creation full circle.
And in John 1: 1 in Greek while the Gospel is propelled out to the Gentiles, you find in verse one the equation for e, which is compound interest, multiplying exponentially.
So even the equations found communicate the purpose of the event. And even the Bible Author God, divided these times by purpose as shown in the 1st verses of these two books, Genesis and John. Then to add to this timetables for dating history is BC and AD.
So the Bible notes each beginning with a math equation. Then took the division of time line for dating history. And then add TORH TORH YHWY HROT HROT in the beginning of each of the five books of the Bible at intervals of Bible numbers of importance in the written text throughout every book of seven and forty-nine .
These singuarly are a stretch against reasonable probability, but for all to be right there on the top, not buried or crazy, together all these are proof of God and His Word. All of these together are impossible odds without Divine Authorship. Together these are more than just an oooh wow, these are against odds of probabilities that are not even be conceivable.
Now in contradiction beween the improbability of two faiths.
A comparison between Christianity and Evolution as ecplanation of Creation.
So on one hand, Evolutionism states strands of DNA self assembled and mutated and against all odds of occurance and against all odds of science principles and without any evidence of a physical example in front of our eyes, we are told to believe it. And that it is factual.
Then you take just these few pieces of many in evidence, tangible and available to view in everyone's individual hands. With everyone having the ability to test it, and even count out the codes for themselves, and literally proving itself in person from the beginning and in person showing agsinst all odds He not only created, but He put it in writing against all odds to prove it!
You have to be evil or an idiot to at least not step back and say there is more to God and the Bible than I currently think. Maybe I should look further!
I"m pointing at the place you are going, it's Hell. You will see, I'm proving it by letting you go there.....and really, you want proof and being in the fire is the only way you will believe so go ahead and go.
Why do you want to argue? As long as you are arguing outside of Hell, you think you have proof of your right to exist outside of Hell? you're losing it, Bob.
You want proof now? God is going to give it to you. How stupid can you be to say "prove it".
I welcome anyone to answer this, please just answer according to reading the text.
I think the first 4 days are those millions of years.
I believe according to what I see and read in Genesis 1 that the 1st full 24 hour day was not until Day 5.
And on that day it says God made Birds and Fish.
But since time and seasons are governed by the sun moon and earths rotation, I think I am just being factual.
The 6th Day He made man and Animals.
I also think man could have been in the garden for a long time while animals and fish populated outside the garden. Which could explain some time where Dinosaurs roamed the earth also. With man coming out of the garden to the tail end of dinosaurs existence.
It explains many scientific things and also it explains what science can't. Like nature jumping into existence. Since it would take an orderly chaos 1 in 10 million chance to form 1 full creature, let alone fill the earth with the diverse classifications and species found in the oceans, lakes, flying in air, and animals. So if God exists and the Creation story is legitimate, my view would be both scientifically credible and creationist credible. Correct?
Saintnow thinks I'm a heretic.
Maybe you can read thid account and tell us just with using basic reading skills and 4th grade science, could I actually be correct?
And with Saintnow being a literal 24 hour days for all 7, I honestly think it's fine either way if he believes that it's literal in time as we know it.
I think my thoughts are more accurate, but I also don't think (IF God exists, which I believe He absolutely exists) But this answer isnt a faith question its a reading comprehension question.
I dont think God will think either of us a "heretic" for our interpretation of reading of this.
GENESIS 1 King James Version
The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The First Day: Light
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
The Second Day: Firmament
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
The Third Day: Dry Ground
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
The Fourth Day: Sun, Moon, Stars
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
The Fifth Day: Fish and Birds
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
The Sixth Day: Creatures on Land
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
I'd like to see you prove that you have the right to exist outside of Hell. If you can do that, then you are going to Heaven and you won't be making stupid arguments with me and trying to nitpick me to death.
YOU HAVE SINNED AGAINST GOD, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL YOU AND LEAVE YOU IN HELL FOREVER, IT IS ONLY BECAUSE HE IS MERCIFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT BURNING IN HELL NOW WHEN YOU HATE GOD AND WANT HIM OUT OF YOUR LIFE YOU FOOLS AND IDIOTS. GET SAVED BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE AND YOU WAKE UP IN HELL.
You're going out in space. The Holy Spirit never leads contrary to the written word of God, never changes God's word, never adds to it. It's not the Holy Spirit guiding you to add things to the Bible which are not there, and in fact are contradicted by the Bible. God said He created all things in six days. If you think a spirit is leading you to believe it could have been six thousand years so you can be in agreement with scientists who believe in evolution or the big bang, that spirit is not the Holy Spirit. You sound like Acts 29 Emerging Church mysticism or something.....Pentecostal, I don't know but somebody sure has your head pumped up big thinking you understand God's word better than what God's word says.
You seem like you really are a nice lady, ok? I don't want to argue with you, had enough, you're not listening. I know you mean well but you are wrong on many points, and again, you do seem like a nice lady and I don't want to continue arguing with you.
what is your point? What are you trying to say? Can you sum it up briefly?
Why are you trying to make everything complicated? The only thing you said that makes any sense is that people are trapped in death. They can be set free, but I don't see you making any point in your doctrines....can you just get to the point and put it in a few words or one sentence?
My point is actually to prove to atheists there is a God. Since the post was to basically convince creation or atheism.
So I went by way of creation and science.
Many of our discussions have gone into directions of 1 of faith to another of faith.
Starting with your dispute of the creation rendition I layer out.
I think it's easier for an atheist to be convinced with the logic I highlighted in the Scripture over each day is 24 hours.
And I backed up my reasoning with many scriptures as well as some scientific information.
And I think if you re-look and consider the depth of growth God accomplished and His views on that growth you may conclude some similar views.
If not I don't actually think Jesus will separate the sheep and the goats based on if they thought all the days of creation to be 24 hours.
But I think taking Genesis to an indepth look may help to reasonably explain creation to an atheist. And it doesn't detract. Since God still made nature jump into existence. But it also addresses science. And I think my approach is honest and as written in Genesis. So I didn't make it up, I simply read it.
To believe what you are teaching, there is no need for God to be the Creator. The vast stretches of time you allow for are the magic wand of evolution. It is not Biblical and it is not scientific, belief in the big bang or evolution is nothing but hypothesis with contradictory facts which disqualify either idea from being a theory. Any time a theory is contradicted by facts, it is no longer a theory. Evolution and the big bang never got past hypothesis and never will, and your teaching of obscurity of time is rebellious when God plainly said He created the heaven and the earth and all that is in them in six days. No field of science requires belief contradictory to the literal six days of Creation.
I remember you, we went through this kind of stuff before, you don't care what the Bible says unless you can twist it to fit your own ideas.
Somethings just can't be explained scientifically. Science is wonderful, but it can't explain why the universe was created. Science can't explain miracles. No they do not "just happen". You can't bring someone back from the graveyard? This is simply because there are somethings even science cannot do.
Prior to Isaac Newton we didn't really understand planetary motion.
This is what Ptolemy said about Planetary motion, “I know that I am mortal by nature, and ephemeral; but when I trace at my pleasure the windings to and fro of the heavenly bodies I no longer touch the earth with my feet: I stand in the presence of Zeus himself and take my fill of ambrosia”
For Ptolemy, having lived over a millennia before Newton, the movement of the planets was an unknowable mystery only understood by the gods. History is replete with things that we will never be know, that with time were eventually known, and when you resign God or gods to such gaps in human knowledge they dwell in increasingly small gaps. The temptation to assign the cause of things we do not currently understand to the supernatural is an ever present one, and an intellectually perilous one at that.
Well they seemed to have had an idea that time worked around the solar system. Or at least if they didn't they worded it in a way that conveyed it when time was established.
Why did the writer choose the order for the creation days?
Even that took some thought and advanced thinking.
I'm sorry, you're going to have to be more explicit here. Who are 'They' and what do you mean 'time worked around the solar system'? I'm not getting your meaning here. What about the order of days?
Actually if you see my last post asking to help Saintnow read on context on GENESIS 1
My theory from reading the Scripture with or without science
Is that Day 4 was the 1st day out of the 7 days that God put time as we know it in place. On day 4 He put moon and Sun and lit the bodies of space in our solar system.
Making Day 5 the 1st true documentaries 24 hour day.
And days of order if you notice the progression
Day 1 Day 2 Day 3 .... etc
God left land and sea vegitation to grow in a day that wasn't governed by time ordering a 24 hour day. Because without rotation there is no 24 hour day. So all 4 days before that is time in eternity not time as created for man. I am saying God created time as man knows it on day 4. With day 5 being the 1st day governed by time as man knows it, a 24 hour day
But time exists without any celestial bodies. You seem to be claiming that because on the 4th day God created the means we use to determine a day (as well as a month and year), that time must have began then.
But, again, time exists as a completely separate concept apart from our moon, our sun, or even our planet. So why would time have started then?
Its like Moses started with bullet points and then narrated details.
If I am correct .... it shows science and also creation.
Also this video is good about the astronomy portion in light of science and creation. Before day 4 light and darkness existed, coexisted simultaneously, God didn't divide them between day and night till day 4. Making Day 5 the first full day in time as we understand time. If no sun and moon were in the sky, would we have 24 hour days? Would we have 4 seasons? Would we have calender years. Were seasons completing a cycle establishing a 365 day year in rotation?
The Fourth Day: Sun, Moon, Stars
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Then you have to think some ancient guy wrote this without scientific data or understanding the solar system, and without understanding fossils, fossil fuels, etc.... that would have developed during the vegitation growth, and also since the garden was separate, and not knowing the time Adam and Eve were in the garden, dinosaurs could have reproduced and lived in vitality. With man entering in a short time before the flood.
Even that makes sense, since man seemed to appear toward the end years of roaming dinosaurs, with dinosaurs dieing off through the flood and after the flood. Man was removed from the garden about 1600 years before the flood.
I'm sorry but how exactly does the 'order of days' demonstrate advanced knowledge of anything when you have to suppose a different order of the days than what is expressly written? This is like declaring you have the winning lottery ticket but claiming the ticket must have a typo because the numbers are in the wrong order.
Well if God inspired the elements needed for time from day 4 and put that in place 1st, then each day would literally be interpreted as 24 hours.
I think to the natural most basic mind the order would have been different
More likely establishing time 1st or even time 3rd
But the author actually did something different.
He started with space, then the author went to earths form.
Its far fetched to think the earth was just an unformed rock in space.
So the author started with a reaction in space.
Then jumped from the reaction in space to the world's form and start of life through simple growth of plants reseeding and filling with bacterial and oxygen and nutrients.
Without the oxygen produced by a land rich in plant life, no creature could survive.
So even that is basically advanced.
So he adreeses an event in space placing a rock filled with water which may have been melted ice arriving with water on top of ground like a rock crusted over by dense ice.
So its very possible these are the building blocks of all life being placed 1st! Only to go back to space on day 4. To then place time.
THEN back to Earth to complete life. Life which clearly has time attached.
So the thought process is pretty advanced.
A guy who can't see asteroids or other space activity, other than the obvious that any 8 year old can look at, and he drew a picture by the text that generations of years were applied to the 1st 3 days. And then even said in a portion of the text "generation of days = 1 day" and we know that any 8 year old can give the broad stroke of sunrise - day sunset - evening. As a matter of life intelligence, they lived life by a 24 hour day, and seasons! It was probably the most understood applicable knowledge they had at the time! So why didn't he start with what he knew best?
The day woke them to care for all their things, their livelihood, their families, their flocks, their food sources, and especially their vegitation! Yet the author has the sun after vegitation filling the earth.
For a prehistoric guy the sun and seasons was their sustenance. Warmth growth of crops. So why put vegitation growth before time sun and moon.
Why put sun after the growth upon the earth.
If you were the prehistoric guy writing this what order would you have.
And which days would you change as events.
Would you in practicality start with an unformed rock dangling in a black hole?
What's incredible is the 1st 4 days.
So if you actually think about the picture he is drawing in each verse, it is extremely advanced! Read the first 4 chapters. Even if you read them before and picture each day. Then think about somethings we know today, and think about their limiyltations back then.
This is how advanced that 1st story is, it literally already addressed the Bing Bang!
It addressed atmosphere. It even addressed the cycle of rain.
Also when it was written they had rain. It addresses a water canopy released at the great flood. A prehistoric guy may think 40 days of intense rain could cover the little earth he lived on at the time. But the author instead suggests the 1st rain was a violent release of a water canopy. So the author by doing so addresses atmospheric changes. From mist from the ground. Which would make sense with condensation and humidity. And addressed the change in atmosphere to even oxygen content.
Before and after the flood had a big impact on life expectancy, as well as sin/curse of man reducing life expectancy.
The dinosaurs even though saved through the flood may not have been able to survive these changes, and all life expectancy was reduced as the atmosphere thinned. The water canopy probably made the earth extremely rich with oxygen. And other nutrients.
So I think if we look at what was not possibly known and see the explanations I think advanced science is written. There is "nothing new under the sun"
The day woke them to care for all their things, their livelihood, their families, their flocks, their food sources, and especially their vegitation! Yet the author has the sun after vegitation filling the earth.
Notice the sun is older than the earth, which makes a great deal of sense if you understand Galilean cosmology, unfortunately the authors of the Bible did not. They were long before Galileo, before even Ptolemy. The biblical authors were working from pre-ptolemic Jewish Cosmology. From that perspective the order of creation as written in Genesis makes perfect sense. It only stops making sense when you impose Galilean cosmology onto ancient writers.
And at what years in evolution did they have their mark?
The order as presented in this video is not at all what contemporary science says, not even remotely. Birds before land animals? The first land animals appears in the fossil record some 200+ million years before the earliest bird. Photosynthetic plants before the sun? Again, not at all what contemporary science says, and indeed not even what common sense would say. This video is so riddled with factual errors, I don't have the time or patience to address them all.
Looks like sunlight whether hidden through an opaque atmosphere or whether they were hung through that period. Or 1st seen through that period.
The Bible still confirms this time line order.
And the people who wrote it had no way of knowing this time line unless God really told them.
3.8 billion years ago?
This is our current “best guess” for the beginning of life on Earth. It is distinctly possible that this date will change as more evidence comes to light. The first life may have developed in undersea alkaline vents, and was probably based on RNA rather than DNA.
At some point far back in time, a common ancestor gave rise to two main groups of life: bacteria and archaea.
How this happened, when, and in what order the different groups split, is still uncertain.
3.5 billion years ago
The oldest fossils of single-celled organisms date from this time.
3.46 billion years ago
Some single-celled organisms may be feeding on methane by this time.
3.4 billion years ago
Rock formations in Western Australia, that some researchers claim are fossilised microbes, date from this period.
3 billion years ago
Viruses are present by this time, but they may be as old as life itself.
2.4 billion years ago
The “great oxidation event”. Supposedly, the poisonous waste produced by photosynthetic cyanobacteria – oxygen – starts to build up in the atmosphere. Dissolved oxygen makes the iron in the oceans “rust” and sink to the seafloor, forming striking banded iron formations.
Recently, though, some researchers have challenged this idea. They think cyanobacteria only evolved later, and that other bacteria oxidised the iron in the absence of oxygen.
Yet others think that cyanobacteria began pumping out oxygen as early as 2.1 billion years ago, but that oxygen began to accumulate only due to some other factor, possibly a decline in methane-producing bacteria. Methane reacts with oxygen, removing it from the atmosphere, so fewer methane-belching bacteria would allow oxygen to build up.
2.3 billion years ago
Earth freezes over in what may have been the first “snowball Earth”, possibly as a result of a lack of volcanic activity. When the ice eventually melts, it indirectly leads to more oxygen being released into the atmosphere.
2.15 billion years ago
First undisputed fossil evidence of cyanobacteria, and of photosynthesis: the ability to take in sunlight and carbon dioxide, and obtain energy, releasing oxygen as a by-product.
There is some evidence for an earlier date for the beginning of photosynthesis, but it has been called into question.
Prior to you being in existence, God was there and you were not. After your death is finalized, God will be there and you will be in Heaven or Hell. If you don't believe it, prove me wrong. Try getting out, make it your life goal.
If you say conscience is conditioning, well just like the 1st act of creation was a burst of light or black hole of gravity, and the question never answered who created that 1st reaction.
Isn't nothing even something?
If something didn't exist then how then can nothing exist?
So if conscience was created by conditioning who set up the 1st conscience?
And if man isn't unique then what other creatures have also learned conscience?
And after you tell me about those creatures tell me how they passed conscience on to their dependents?
Or tell me how any other creature can also learn to have a conscience.
If we are just creatures and we developed our own conciences and then conditioned other consciences, isnt it reasonable to think there has to be at least a few other creatures that also can be taught to develope a conscience.
Memories, hmm not just education. Just memory, which other creatures have a memories like us.
I can shoot water at a cat every time she jumps on the counter, eventually she knows water hits me whenever I go up on the counter. But that's not memories.
Even animals that have instinctive memories are not like our memories. An ape may notice another ape is missing, but even that is instinct. They instinctively live in families. But the don't remember like us. A dog may forever be lol to a dead owner. But still not memories like ours. A sea turtle instinctively knows it's way back to land. But that's still instinct.
Our memories we can command, and reminiscing a past person or event. Attaching emotion to our memories.
Even the ape has memory but by instinct, but not a conscience or memories and the command of memories the same thing?
When God spoke to Moses He said His name is "I Am"
Many times God is called The Alpha and the Omega The Beginning and the End.When God spoke to Moses He said His name is "I Am"
Many times God is called The Alpha and the Omega The Beginning and the End.
If God exists who is man to question Him. Who is man to demand proof or to demand anything from God.
If He is content to create us, then shouldn't us existing be our lot in life. If we are just assembled then what is soul and what is conscience?
Besides humanity what other species has a conscience.
Conscience is right or wrong. Well you can train right and wrong.
You can train a mouse the right way through the maze to get the cheese.
You can train a dog to obey and do tricks.
Dog lovers they love you! Right? Sure they have an instinct that considers you part of the pack. They have loyalty and they live to please you, and look quilts when they tear up your couch cushions.
God made animals and brought them to Adam and no suitable help mate or companion was like him. So God made animals and even offered them as companions and help mates, but He said not suitable to be like him.
The dog does love you, but there is not really conscience, there is instinct. And the guilt he feels is a conditioned response to the reaction of displeasure he is aware of when you come in. Or he is aware every time he does this behavior it brings displeasure.
But conscience isn't just instinct. It isn't even a conditioned response.
Our consciences exist independently. We are born with a conscience, we become aware of it as we grow.
Conscience is either dulled or made sensitive.
But it existed before being molded.
Conscience can be effected by disease or environment.
But these factors have to alter the conscience we are born with.
Every decission made affecting conscience that is made in the mind isn't an act of conscience.
An act is taken disregarding conscience or in light of conscience.
Example Hitler actions weren't a result of conscience, they were a result of depravity of conscience.
Whatever was put in or pushed through Hitler was an act of depravity silencing his conscience.
Pharoah in the Moses story " let my people go" is a Bible example of a hardened heart, or conscience. A conscience can be dulled to the point of depravity. But still we all have 1.
I'm sure there was even a line Hitler wouldn't cross because of whatever was left of his conscience. Maybe he was dull there was no line left.
The question is, Did the big bang send our consciences?
What else in creation has a conscience?
A conscience can haunt someone, nag at someone, cause guilt, or justice, or cause freedom, take a stand, or take a fall.
Its something that can feel.
Its something that attaches emotion to our actions and our choices. It is the why and the motive of the heart not of the head.
Its the final say when making a list of available choices when consequences have a deeper effect than eating a piece of cake or a piece of fruit.
Our consciences isn't our preferences or our likes and dislikes.
Its a place inside that feels the choice. A piece of cake could be conscience if it's someone else's cake, or if your on a diet and cheating.
But see its a feeling about the action.
Most of us don't feel anything about our piece of cake.
Now if it's double chocolate and makes you think of mom, and you remember how you hurt her when you ran away, thats conscience.
If there is not a God then how do we exclusively have a conscience?
The Bible says God breathed life into the man and he was created a living soul.
It also says God wrote the law on our consciences so no one would have an excuse.
The 1st act of wronged conscience was Adam and Eve hiding in the garden. There is no need to hide if your conscience has nothing to hide.
Man can hide things for years because of conscience. Can any other created thing carry that weight within themselves?
Is man truely unique in creation?
The Bible says Let Us make Man in Our Image
US is the Trinity
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
And I must tell you your error with the use of your scriptures about women.
Ready here it is...
You use it to say you are right in your doctrines because you are a man. Those scriptures ABSOLUTELY do NOT mean you are right because you are a man. That is a sin of pride, and its just as screwed up in doctrine as it can get regarding women.
1st of all I assume I am a good bit older than you, and I think there is something about older women being looked at as mothers able to guide in spiritual matters and practical matters.
2nd of all we are not IN church together and you are just a man discussing scripture with a woman.
You are not my husband
Not my pastor
Not a leader in my church
And you logic is EXTREMELY faulty, because by what you are saying... a woman should cover their head, is that by every man?
Even antiChrists? Even false teachers? Who determines which men have authority over women? Well it must be all????? Really??????
You being a man and me being a woman is irrelevant here.
If there is any relevance you should look to my maturity as an older woman as honorable!
1 is simply being respectful and giving honor for age and maturity.
But you as a man DO NOT cover my head in ANY Biblical context!
So please drop that foolish argument with me it doesn't and will never carry any authority over me as a Christian or as a woman.
I have a husband I have my head covered.
And we are not in church. And I don't subject myself to authority God did not designate.
Ok?
So argue my points. Or don't talk to me because I'm a woman
Your choice!
As in maturity I have you by age and most likely I am more mature spiritually also. At least currently. My assumptions are from our conversations, and what I've seen in your post in general.
You need to grow. I've been around as a Christian for 30 years, I've seen almost every attitude within your post, sometimes even in myself.
I'm not being mean, I'm telling you knowing growth happens, and some times its a 2 step, 1 step forward and 2 steps back. But eventually you do- se- do
Your doctrine is false and I'm going to speak against it and I get a kick out of pointing out how the woman is not supposed to usurp authority over the man as you try to tell me what to do, how to think, and how to act.
There is no need to compromise with big bang or evolution believers, there is no need to believe in those things for study and research in any area or science. When you believe in those things, you have to change the Bible and that compromise denies the power of God and divides Christians....it's your crowd responsible for the division as the word of God plainly states, God Himself speaking, that He created the heaven and the earth and all that is in them in six days. True science requires no belief contrary to the literal six days of Creation.
It's a mistake to tell scientists that the lies they believe regarding the big bang and evolution can be supported by the Bible. You might was well toss your Bible out the window.
In a sense you are correct and then the rest you are incorrect.
Conscience is both men and women.
Women are unique from men in that they can be decieved more easily emotionally. Its the nature of both beasts.
Men being more objective and task oriented, often have women at a disadvantage emotionally. AND no degree of feminism will change it. And they try! The push to equalize a physical relationship.
Guys and gals will always be different on processing it.
Usually the girl thinking more than the guy, being decieved.
The girls who fight so hard to dull their consciences, have to devalue themselves to achieve it. And it hurts them no matter how they act on the outside. They are decieved by denial.
But man is a term of humanity
Both man and wo-man.
So you have to consider context in your conclusions
You have to consider that I find you funny and your compromise with evolution and big bang belief heretical. I still have not seen you respond in any way to my request for your comments on Exodus 20:1 & 11
So all women are decieved and there is no truth in them.
Are we not heirs also???
You can't see anything wrong with the attitude of your heart in matters relating to women?
You are using scriptures to defend a faulty sinful attitude.
Go talk to your pastor, your supposed to be under them.
And you need help through this to see clearly.
You use scripture to say you are right because you are a man, and I am wrong because I must be decieved because I'm a woman.
And that's not ridiculous in your mind.
You are literally doing what Adam did the woman.you made is decieved so I am only right or wrong based on her being decieved
Honestly you need to never use those scriptures because you use them to sow fig leaves.
Truth is to set free! Not put down into submission.
1st of all look at the Scripture a women is supposed to subject herself.... Not a man is supposed to subdue!
Your attempt with scripture is to subdue. To rule over, to be right!
2 Tim 2
22 Run from anything that stimulates youthful lusts. Instead, pursue righteous living, faithfulness, love, and peace. Enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts.
23 Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
Here is a Biblical presentation which curiously goes through examples of women as prophets and teachers and also goes into the attitude of hearts in women and men.
that's good. Now explain why Paul said the woman should not usurp authority over the man, because the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
And I'm sure you are referencing Deborah, who rubbed it in the face of the man who was supposed to be trusting God and taking the lead when she took the lead for battle. It was a disgrace that Deborah had to do it, and she shamed the man who was supposed to do it.
The woman in the garden lost control by being deceived. Women tend to want power in order to regain control, hence the feminazis demanding "equality". The man in the garden lost respect because he was not deceived and knew exactly what he was doing when he disobeyed God. Men generally want respect, and women gain power by refusing to respect men. Then the women get mad and start wearing pants and shoulder pads.
What is necessary for any world to exist, and without this which is necessary then no possible world could exist?
What is necessary for any possible world to exist?
What is the 1st piece needed beyond the last known layer?
When we peel back every layer down the nucleus of the base core, the final layer out of which all things began, what is necessary for our actual world?
So if we peel back to 1st speck, back to evolutions 1st spark of energy that started the chain reaction of all creation would have to have every building block of our creation, the complexity of our entire world, to the highest possible form of possible evolution achieved, with every detail contained in a speck the size of rhe 1st spark, the size of a mustard seed.
A few interesting rambling thoughts:
Jesus discussed faith the size of a mustard seed could move mountains into the sea. So If our faith is that powerful for us, what is God able to do with a mustard seed???
Its a funny thing that Jesus referred to the kingdom as going through an eye of a needle, and also as a mustard seed.
And Speed of light we now know, and I don't actually grasp.
But I grasp enough to see a connection He is light, there is NO darkness in Him. He is eternal life and the light.
In the New Jerusalem there will be only day. Are light years days in heaven talked about from almost every prophet?
1 - Nothing exists if No-Maximality is exemplified
2 - Maximal greatness is possible only if Maximality is exemplified.
3 - Without Maximality, then Maximal Greatness is impossible!
The rule of logic leading to Maximum Greatness, by standards of Maximum Excellence.
Qualities pertaining to Maximum Excellence in Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness is determined by the highest possible Evolution in any and every possible world.
Maximum Excellence is point of reference, and Maximum Greatness is point of reference!
1 Maximum Greatness exists in any and every possible world.
2 Maximum Excellence exists in every possible way relative to the greatest or at the very least minimum application necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in any and every possible world.
3 If any of the possible worlds consists of only ants and bugs, then Maximum Excellence is whatever qualities are necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in that possible world.
4 So Maximum Excellence is relative to the greater or at least minimum applications necessary to achieve highest evolution of Maximum Greatness for any and all possible world.
5 Maximum Excellence entails the application of qualities necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness relative to any and every possible world.
6 There exists a Being of Maximum Excellence relative to the greatest or at least minimum qualities necessary to achieve Maximum Greatness in any and every possible world.
7 Maximum Excellence as Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection are relative to the greater or at least minimum application necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in every possible world.
8 What is impossible in one possible world, may be be possible in other possible worlds.
9 What is possible in one possible world may be impossible in another possible world.
10 The proposition, there exists an Omnicient, Omnipotent, and Morally Perfect Being of Maximum Excellence relative to the greater or at least minimum application necessary to achieve it's highest possible evolution to Maximum Greatness in an actual possible world.
11 So the conclusion is there must be a Maximum Excellent Being in any and every possible world that has the greatest or at least minimum qualities necessary in Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Moral Perfection relevant to the acievement of highest possible evolution in Maximum Greatness in that actual possible world .
12 - Nothing exists if No-Maximality is exemplified
13 - Maximal greatness is possible only if Maximality is exemplified.
14 - Without Maximality, then Maximal Greatness is impossible!
15 - Since Maximality exists, ONLY those who are made in the image of Maximality can achieve the highest possible Maximum Greatness in the image of Maximality!
16 - Those who are made in the image of Maximality achieve Maximum Greatness by an ever present goal within themselves, and set before themselves ever reaching for their Maximum Greatness with standards reflective of the image of Maximality!
17 - The goal to achieve Maximum Greatness can never achieved if Maximality is altered by a lesser image of Maximality in any and every possible world!
18 - Maximum Greatness is achieved by reaching it's Maximum Potential in it's Maximum Purpose through achieving it's highest possible likeness to an unaltered image of Maximality.
1 - Nothing exists if No-Maximality is exemplified
2 - Maximal greatness is possible only if Maximality is exemplified.
3 - Without Maximality, then Maximal Greatness is impossible!
4 - Since Maximality exists, ONLY those who are made in the image of Maximality can achieve the highest possible Maximum Greatness in the image of Maximality!
5 - Those who are made in the image of Maximality achieve Maximum Greatness by an ever present goal within themselves, and set before themselves ever reaching for their Maximum Greatness with standards reflective of the image of Maximality!
6 - The goal to achieve Maximum Greatness can never achieved if Maximality is altered by a lesser image of Maximality in any and every possible world!
7 - Maximum Greatness is achieved by reaching it's Maximum Potential in it's Maximum Purpose through achieving it's highest possible likeness to an unaltered image of Maximality.
What would it be like if God didn't really exist, if there was no Maximality and no Maximum Greatness Potential?
Without any basis of standard of Maximality qualities?
If there is no basis for Conscience without a Maximality to define and establish a standard of conscience, then how does conscience exist, and an even more disturbing question, why is it exclusive to 1 species? So then why would conscience exist among humanity, yet not exist in any other living thing produced in the same possible world?
Wouldn't it make sense that if conscience was evolved, that there would be further samplings of conscience in the same possible world?
So Creation verses Evolution is a blindness and a distraction to many.
The point is not whether God chose to do it in 24 hours, or millions of years, and even if the Nithilum were civilizations of prehistoric men, God made man in "His image" when He made Adam ...!
That is a story of God's creation of His children ... and setting in motion every detail to be written we ever needed to know to be redeemed, and then changed into a nature of glorified bodies that CAN live in the His holiness and His light, so that we CAN live with Him forever.
While the rest of the world and its inhabitants from the beginning of time who missed out, are woken also to join in for this world's final destruction. ie.. Sheep / goats etc... to never exist again.
When God made the world in Genesis, He ALSO established an "appointed time" for every act of prophesy that day from the beginning to end!
The Bible is so amazing, but without the Spirit of God in us it's an unknown wacky Book, with nice object lessons, but a book of riddles! But with the Spirit of God in us and showing us, Man! It opens up eternity, like your swimming in a deepest crystal clear river, with Living Waters rushing through every appointed time, with every wisdom ever known, with the sounds of Eternity echoing throughout the deepest cavern declaring the glory and power of God that He wove into a Book His people could hold in their hands!
Common sense from monkeys to apes to human and from mammals who feed their young with milk.
Do you think an ape is made in the image of God?
The question isn't a science question.
And the answer isn't a biology answer.
Truth of God's Word can't be understood or defined by science, science is too small. Isn't that my point in the arguments?
Look if you can hear you will, if you can't it's because your what God calls so smart its foolishness! If you can't be humble, you can't know the greatest things there are to know.
Snippets from Prove 18
2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
3 When a wicked man comes, contempt also comes,
And with dishonor comes scorn.
4 The words of a man’s mouth are deep waters; ("stumbling blocks" as in Revelations? "The deep" as found in Genesis 1?)
The fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook - ("Living Waters never thirst again" ?)
The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge,
And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge. ("seek you shall find, knock door will be opened" ?)
With the fruit of a man’s mouth his stomach will be satisfied;
He will be satisfied with the product of his lips. ("The mouth speaks, whatever is in the heart" ?)
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.
Snippets from Matt 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered
from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears
bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a
bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts
on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for
it had been founded on the rock.
26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
Again, do you know what the difference is between an ape vs a primate?
Because the fact that you think evolution tells us we evolved from apes seems to indicate that not only do you not understand evolution, but you don't even understand much at all about hominids.
That matters as little as the 7 Days being each 24 hours or
a million years.
If you can't see, no amount of arguing will change that.
The question isn't even relevant
The point is man is in a class of their own!
And there may well have been prehistoric men too.
Satan was cast down with a host of angels
And they may had taken physical bodies at one point.
And honestly, it actually doesn't matter to Faith in God, and the work He is completing here on earth.
If you have an ear you will seek, if not well then the time will be upon us soon, and you will figure it out then.
I am absolutely convinced of God! Not just faith I mean convinced!
The Bible is soooooo brilliant, I'm stunned at its stitching!
When you see it, it makes it extremely clear, yet it uncovers even more mysteries to be sought and found,
God is sooooo huge, and we are sooooo small, smaller than a deer tick!
Just in 1 chapter of Genesis is connections, that these prophets could NOT have done without the most advanced Government or NASA computers known to man! And even then couldn't!
Hear is just 1 set of verses, and I already see it as 5 different ways, telling 5 different things, and this is the depth found throughout the whole entire Bible. There is no doubt that God wrote it, and kept it exactly as He wrote it through every day of 6000 years!
And it all fits with each other, and isnt private interpretation.
Its on purpose to show many different things from God to His people, at different times throughout all history and future.
His Word is as Omnipotent as He is Omnipotent!
That's why in John 1 John says about "The Word"
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Doesn't this "sound" like Genesis?!?
It would take Eternity to even uncover just a portion of it, that's the crazy depth and accuracy of God, His design, His Prophesy, His Plan, His Completion!
See if you can grasp any of "It's Evolution" maybe He will let you see enough to change the direction of your heart. To atleast consider this might be more than a book.
I felt led to journal, and take apart a few verses, here is just 1 section in Genesis 1. And here is outcome so far just focused just for day 3.
Day 3 / has - 3 sections / 6 - points are in each section, except there are 7 points in the 3rd section.
6 points / 6 points/then last section has 7 points
Then God uses words like "and it was so" "He named it" and "God saw it was good" a day, a second day, a third day .... etc.
These are all defining of things like specific people, groups of people, times, events, prophesies. They are not only directing us to be people in His Image, but are directing us trough 6000 years of time!
Day 3, journal by each section, this one day has 3 specific sections.
* Then take Matt 13 and do the same. - It looks like Jesus is explaining somethings in multiple ways in just 1 parable.
Seed - fruit - are characteristics - like good fruit - love joy peace patience .... and bad fruit envy, hate, bitterness, lust ....
BUT also Seed against Seed as told in The fall in the garden, enmity between Serpent and the woman, and between serpents seed and the woman's seed, then right away Cain Kills Abel, and we see baby boys killed in Egypt as Moses escapes in a basket, we see Herod kill boys in Bethlehem, while God sends Jesus to hide for a few years in Egypt.
Image of God vs image of Satan .
Then 3rd day - Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day ... well we are talking about "A Third Day" So This all the way back to Genesis 1 is telling of Jesus Death and Resurrection!
In John 12 Jesus is preparing for the cross. And AGAIN giving instructions ...
This is how we follow Him into Eternal Life, we go to Salvation through His death on the cross, and His Resurection, ( its the "eye of the needle" It's how we become Born Again.
He says in John 12: 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, (AG)unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
And also Harvest of souls, dividing real teachers from false teachers, and then producing real fruit that is good and ripe for His return - the "Christians" who remain, and unripe bad fruit produced by false teachers who are stumbling blocks.
See Revelations Babylon and the sea ... see in Revelations unripe fruit and winds.
Gen 1 with 6 points in each 3 sections - with last section a 7th point with evening and morning are third day even that is ... a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies, out of it is a great tree
(as 7th point in the last 1/3) - and then He has another parable about the wheat and the tares!
And if you look at the parable of the sower ...
Jesus says, the harvest ,
"some 30 - some 60 and some 100 fold!"
Or you can read it as 1st section evening 2nd section morning third section "a third day"
I think both ways are 2 messages just in sectioning each section out with evening and morning and one a 3rd day. actually probably 10, 20, or 30.
Now as crazy as this is, I have about 30 scriptures coming to my mind that are connected, just to these few verses describing "1 Day" out of 7 in only 1 chapter of Genesis.
Now you may say, it's easy, they purposely did this.
We are talking about people who wrote in different time periods, often hundreds even thousands of years between them.
Thes words were not always understood by most of the people, they memorized every jot and tittle, but they didnt understand alot of it, otherwise they all would have easily recognized Jesus, and of course not even Judas saw his part in it all!
So these prophets were fed word for word, everything they wrote, and the message in the garden with Adam and Eve, God gave commant to Adam, and He didnt teach Eve correctly because, she added words, to "exactly what God said".
So the big rule!! Was they had to memorize every dot and cross of the T. In every generation, so the message came through EXACTLY as He gave it. Because every thing is so precise, its unbelievable!
Even when I was Journaling, I'm a big short cutter, when hammering out notes. I literally had to write it and number it line upon line, and when I didn't I was brought back to it to rewrite it, then saw the pattern I was meant to see.
"Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
Vengeance × 7
Methushael # 5
Then Lamech # 6 Vengence 7 × 10
"The number of a man"
Lamech says in a bragging song -
" .... For I have killed a man for wounding me; And a boy for striking me; 24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”
In comparison Adam through Seth also had an Enoch # 7 - who was taken by God to a city in Heaven!
Then Methuselah # 8
(root words of name Methu = Death/Selah = Pause or Praise as it is used in Psalms.
"Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
Vengeance × 7
Methushael # 5
Then Lamech # 6 Vengence 7 × 10
"The number of a man" # 6 - generation from Cain - who by the way fyi - God put an identifying "mark" on him !!!
Lamech says in a bragging song -
" .... For I have killed a man for wounding me; And a boy for striking me; 24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”
In comparison Adam through Seth also had an Enoch # 7 - who was taken by God to a city in Heaven!
Then Methuselah # 8
(root words of name Methu = Death/Selah = Pause or Praise as it is used in Psalms.
You don't understand the Bible because to you it's a sealed book.
Jesus said "ears to hear" "eyes to see"
Its also said in the Old Testament and in writing of letters and Revelations.
Here is just 2 saying it. If you have ears you will hear if not, we can talk till we both die of exhaustion and it won't give you ears!
Luke 8:10
And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
Isaiah 29
11 The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who [l]is literate, saying, “Please read this,” he will say, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”
12 Then the [m]book will be given to the one who [n]is illiterate, saying, “Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read.”
You don't understand the Bible because to you it's a sealed book.
Jesus said "ears to hear" "eyes to see"
Its also said in the Old Testament and in writing of letters and Revelations.
Here is just 2 saying it. If you have ears you will hear if not, we can talk till we both die of exhaustion and it won't give you ears!
Luke 8:10
And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
Isaiah 29
11 The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, “Please read this,” he will say, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”
12 Then the book will be given to the one who [n]is illiterate, saying, “Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read.”
Read it! Then read it again trying to understand it. Because it's actually just a snippet that's pretty mind blowong.
Remember story of Cain and Abel?
How about Isaac and Ishmael?
Here is something not popularly known about Cain and his family tree.
Cain is the (1st generation), and he fathered
Enoch (2nd generation) Cain built a city named after his son Enoch, then Irad (3nd generation), Mehujael (4th generation)
Methushael (5th generation) root words of his name
Methu = Death / Shael = Sheol
Lamech (6th generation) - 6 the number of a man, this maybe a message of insight here!
Especially compared to the geneology of Seth!
Cain murders 1 and lies to God, Lamech murders 2 and brags about it to 2 wives, after he killed a man and a boy in vengeance, while declaring even greater severe vengeance!
Lamech also marries 2 Wives, which is not what God commanded He made them male and female... to become one flesh!
In the geneolgy of Cain, there is an Enoch # 2.
And, there is also an Enoch # 7 in Seth's geneology. - God takes his son # 7 Enoch to Heaven without dieing, while Cain dead in this world names a city after his son Enoch.
(Seth of course is Abel's "replacement" as stated by Eve "since Cain murdered him")
So in the 6th generation of Cain, Lamech the direct son of a man whose name means death-sheol sings praise of murder hear what he says ...
Genesis 4
23 Lamech said to his wives,
“Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”
FYI Ishmael wasn't a mistake, he also was born at the
"appointed time"
God say "at the appointed time" over and over and over again, such as in when fulfilled promise to Abraham and Sarah "when" conceived Isaac "at the appointed time" then there is the story to us ... when Abraham was "100 years old" He fathered Isaac ... and "86" When "Ishmael" was born.
Here is a very important prophesy given to Ishmael's "Egyptian" mom "
"Sarai treated her (Hagar) harshly, and she fled from her presence.
7 Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.”
10 Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, “I will greatly multiply
your descendants so that they will be too many to count.”
11 The angel of the Lord said to her further,
“Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the Lord has given heed to your affliction.
12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man,
his hand will be against everyone,
And everyone’s hand will be against him,
And he will live to the east of all his brothers.”
Does this sound like anything to you???
Umm yeah, it's a prophesy that grows, and is part of Israel's history up till end time prophesies fulfilled in final days.
Now this is a prophesy showing Israel's enemies, and every nation's part in it!
How telling!
Well these specific events and time periods are time setters designed by God "in completeion" of all His work!
And every detail we need to guide us is literally in the Bible everywhere, in everything, every story, every parable!!! Even in geneologies, what I've seen in Genesis from Adam to Noah and through Cain's geneology is end times mindblowong! Along with many other things that I've seen in Genesis.
----------
Jesus was not ever coming on the "2000 year Millenial" like many thought whit hype of computers shutting down etc ... if you remember that hype. (And fyi, I didn't buy into that hype at all!) But now I do see a time that is pretty much a clear "appointed." (believe
Its a time to get His people ready, and a breathing space that many Christians will take as "peace and safety!" While His true people get to work, and this is in about 5 parables Jesus told .... and in prophesies from Genesis to Revelations!
I mean amazing!!
When God made the world in Genesis, He ALSO established an "appointed time" for every act of prophesy that day from the beginning to end!
The Bible is so amazing, but without the Spirit of God in us it's an unknown wacky Book, with nice object lessons, but a book of riddles! But with the Spirit of God in us and showing us, Man! It opens up eternity, like your swimming in a deepest crystal clear river, with Living Waters rushing through every appointed time, with every wisdom ever known, with the sounds of Eternity echoing throughout the deepest cavern declaring the glory and power of God that He wove into a Book His people could hold in their hands!
You ignore God! Then you blame Christians on not listening, you can do that all you want, but if you can't hear God's Word it's because you can't hear,
It's not a benefit to anyone to change God's Word in order to tickle people's ears.
As a matter of fact, tickling ears and diluting the truth is a stumbling block, which Jesus say "Woe to you of whom stumbling blocks come, it's better to have a millstone tied to your neck and dumped into the sea."
And in Revelation 18:21
Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.
Matthew 18:6
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea
It is not likely and is not usual - as a matter of fact it is HIGHLY unlikely and EXTREMELY unusual!!
Here is part of the historical event of Steven's Martyrdom
Notice his stoners coats were laid at Saul's feet.
Saul after murdering Christiand, has an unusual transformation and personally experienced an encounter with the Risen Jesus.
Saul goes from killing them to the greatest winner of souls. And by those actions fullfills PROPHESY!! And his dramatic conversion pushes the gospel out from his own countrymen to Gentiles, (other Nation other than Israel) and is well know even from those he was in league with while severely persecuting Christians.
Matt 24
14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Isaiah 11
10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious."
.
So like it, or not this IS reasonable evidence, and along with 2000 prophesies that have already been fulfilled in detail!
With only 500 to go, and some of those are in process!
Evidence FOR GOD is mounting!!!
Stephen was martyred as murders placed their coats at Saul's feet.
SAUL Later became PAUL, and went on to become a valiant Appostle of the faith he was a murderer in war against Christians!
What changed?
Acts 7
51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. 52 Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; 53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
I believe in Pragmatic Agnosticism, which means I believe that the existence of God(s) can neither be proven, nor disproven at humanity's current state.
Jesus?
I believe that the man himself existed as per Roman historical records, and I believe he was a religious leader in Israel. I think he had a lot of great things to say, and some pretty shitty things to say (though those were in keeping with the times, I suppose). I definitely don't believe he was the son of any god, nor do I believe that his mother was a virgin when she gave birth. Occam's Razor and all that.
And the Bible?
A religious text not unlike the Quran or Torah (well, the second is kind of cheating for obvious reasons). I fundamentally disagree with the underlying concept, and find the God involved to be one of if not the most "evil" (I put in quotes because I don't believe in the concept of objective evil) deities ever invented, and strongly believe that if a God did exist, he would be nothing like what is described in the Abrahamic religions.
I also believe you proved my point about ignoring what is said to you.
Answer 1 - God? Your answer is a cop out, convenient answer, almost playing it safe - if there were such a thing. It's a response to a question that is answered without effort to seek an answer.
Answer 2 - Jesus? Your answer lacks real consideration and thought.
A forensic atheist decided to take the gospels and any other writings in and out of the Bible to find and expose lies, conspiracies, or whatever was at the bottom of this faith.
Forensic pros look for the lies and inconsistencies in writings, they piece together lies, and conspiracies through comparing documents, writing styles, and types of phrases or words used, and in comparing records, but with a specific focus to find and point out any falsified information.
A devout atheist, even raised as atheist, after looking at the gospels determined from the study, that without a doubt, the 4 gospels, are 4 individual writers, who all witnessed and recorded the same things as in a manner of one writing a truthful account by eye witness, and in clear consistet accounts from their personal experiences and memories.
Not just 1 small chapter, these accounts are chapters long of their eyewitness accounts. Details so impressive, they couldnt forget.
All the teachings and parables and miracles, they each saw and heard, and had witnessed themselves over a 3.5 year time period.
The previous atheist forensic said, Even the inconsistencies that do exist in the writings are actually affirmative indicators of the accounts are legitimate truthful documentations.
One example - Where one writer gives an account such as "the soldiers were slapping Jesus, saying tell us prophet, who just slapped you" one of the other gospel writers said the same exact story, but he added they blindfolded Jesus, and we're slapping Him, saying tell prophet who just slapped you"
As a forensic, he said those types of inconsistencies are actually truth indicators. They are accidental confirmations that the authors are at the same event, explaining the same details, but from different prespective and personalities. The 4 gospels, even if they were written right next to each other, the forensic testimony would be a testimony establishing the writers were being truthful, and were not inventing conspiracies or lieing.
But they werent even written next to each other, or even in the same years. Yet they all had the same experiences.
The letters, and other historical findings from the time period, are all saying the same things, indisputable evidence, that would literally hold up in any of todays court trials as evidence of the truthful documentations of all 4 accounts.
You would have to dismiss the evidence, as though it didn't exist
and then literally decieve yourself to think he was merely just a charismatic man. You would have to dismiss Jesus and all the facts and accounts surrounding Him, and dismiss all the writers along with their detailed eye witness accounts, and dismiss either the courage or insanity of the early Church who faced extremes in persecution, and also all the others in every age that followed them to also face the same, and also dismiss all the prophets, and all their detailed writings that told of Jesus' coming!
As far as through a Virgin, He is God!
! Historians say according to all items and writings found, that Jesus truely DID live during the time followers said He lived,
AND also He was Crucified.
! There was an intensity of unreasonable growth during extreme hostilities.
! Islam grew through its followers causing extremes to others and making converts by force, as those converted caved in easily under extremes of force, with numbers, and the force behind their movement gaining in strength!
But that's not the case in the early Church of Jesus' followers. It's the opposite, they were non-violent passevist, and adversity began when they were small, yet they grew in numbers anyway!
! There were a large number of prophetic "future tellers" concerning a someone coming that looks just like the person Jesus, with details of events He would have actually HAD to be God to coordinate, unless the All the Pharisees, Pilot, and Herod also were in on the conspiracy!?!?
! Faith in this charismatic but ordinary man grew so big in spite of extremes faced by everyday people in persecutions, that
All of Time and All of History is defined by His Birth! A.D. and B.C.
These where several over 4000 years. Who confirmed incredible details that they all got right. 100 % accuracy! If we had a psychic like that, she'd be rolling in dough in just a few short years, everyone would pay to know tomorrow, and a premium would be paid for such accuracy!
2nd You have the Eye Witnesses,
If we take 4 conspirators, and they can be as smart as Harvard graduates, or as dumb as punks ...
With interagationd and investigations, each of their stories would show mis-fitting details and they would quickly and EASILY fall apart.
Even in the conveniences of communication of our present day, regardless if conspirators practice, plan, and coordinate every alibi and lieing detail, forensics and investigators will almost always still break through it all, and will almost always find the little treads, that when pulled, unravel their spun stories.
Between just 2 people, or even just 1 person lies trip when looked at with scrutiny! If for just 2 people, or even just 1, keeping a lie is difficult, then how about 4, or 12 people?
How about 100's of people keeping the lies and the same stories?
Many of the first followers were people who where 1st hand eye witnesses.
Then add the pressures from intese persecutions, a constant threat and weight around their necks meant to crush and remove these "untrue stories." While Christians lived everyday life in these violent environments in the aftermath of the Crucifixion (and also the Resurrection.) And continued against them over many generations.
And you further decrease any ability for Christianity to have progressed beyond this 1st crew.
Historically factual accounts of loyalty are recorded among 1,000,000's of meek people, not pumped up terrorists infused with radical ideas of hate and vengeance, Not testosterone happy coloseum fighters. Not people trained for battle or engaged in wars. Mild mannered fathers and mothers, people of every age, from every walk of life. The basic fishermen, tradesmen, bakers, even tax collectors. Everyday people, throughout every part of those societies.
Under extreme pressures, MAYBE a few would have been able to persevere, and willingly become lion food rather than deny their faith in Jesus, but Jesus had to be pretty charismatic for all those people to follow Him to those horrific deaths.
Heck, I think being blown up by suicide vest, knowing it will be over in just a few seconds is actually a pretty cowardice martyrdom in comparison to some martyrdoms they endured in taking a stand for something as silly as faith in just a man any man! No matter how cool He was!
But, we are talking about many, many, many everyday people, who were living simple everyday lives, to become so loyal to faith in Jesus and for the things they learned and witnessed. To the degree they chose not to deny the Lord Jesus regardless of facing severe extremes in affliction, loss of their loved ones, loss of everything, imprisonment, unimaginable pains of torture, stoning, fed to lions, beheadings, and fire and still not change their stories and their faith. And still "hold on to their conspiracies and lies.
We are talking about people, given life choices like deny this whole story and go home and bake bread for you children, or be lion food for all to watch as Lions crush your bones and rip your limbs off!
They tought Jesus was more than just a man, more than even a great man. They died for a man who WAS technically already dead and gone! That is, if there was no Resurrection!
So Creation verses Evolution is a blindness and a distraction to many.
The point is not whether God chose to do it in 24 hours, or millions of years, and even if the Nithilum were civilizations of prehistoric men, God made man in "His image" when He made Adam ...!
That is a story of God's creation of His children ... and setting in motion every detail to be written we ever needed to know to be redeemed, and then changed into a nature of glorified bodies that CAN live in the His holiness and His light, so that we CAN live with Him forever.
While the rest of the world and its inhabitants from the beginning of time who missed out, are woken also to join in for this world's final destruction. ie.. Sheep / goats etc... to never exist again.
If God exists, and His Word is credible, then yes, I wouldn't have a reason not to.
I don't know that we need to explain everything under the sun to establish if at the very least the Bible is credible in historical docomentation and pre-written history as documentation.
If all other things are accurate and truthful then it's reasonable to Consider Adam is also possibly just as credible.
Is there a place in the speed of light where time stands still?
Is God known as Light?
Does He give Eternal Life?
Did anyone writing the Bible understand the speed of light, or was that a scientific realization of modern day?
Then how or why would light and eternal life and Omnipresence meaning every where at once and Omniscience, knowing all things past present and future, why do you think light and these characteristics of the person who IS Light would somehow appear together, as characteristics found in God, who is The Light?
Again did these ancient writers understand the science of Light?
When God made the world in Genesis, He ALSO established an "appointed time" for every act of prophesy that day from the beginning to end!
The Bible is so amazing, but without the Spirit of God in us it's an unknown wacky Book, with nice object lessons, but a book of riddles! But with the Spirit of God in us and showing us, Man! It opens up eternity, like your swimming in a deepest crystal clear river, with Living Waters rushing through every appointed time, with every wisdom ever known, with the sounds of Eternity echoing throughout the deepest cavern declaring the glory and power of God that He wove into a Book His people could hold in their hands!
Everyday of creation is a 1000 years of time till He establishes His Kingdom and ushers in His 7th day "rest" as His 1000 year reign, while He establishes New Jerusalem.
It's the time period of letting the earth sit for its day of rest, while His children also rest for 1000 years, before finally bringing His final Kingdom to earth "The New Jerusalem" in Revelations 21.
God say "at the appointed time" over and over and over again, such as in when fulfilled promise to Abraham and Sarah "when" conceived Isaac "at the appointed time" then there is the story to us ... when Abraham was "100 years old" He fathered Isaac ... and "86" When "Ishmael" was born.
Here is a very important prophesy given to Ishmael's "Egyptian" mom "
"Sarai treated her harshly, and she fled from her presence.
7 Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.”
10 Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, “I will greatly multiply
your descendants so that they will be too many to count.”
11 The angel of the Lord said to her further,
“Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the Lord has given heed to your affliction.
12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man,
his hand will be against everyone,
And everyone’s hand will be against him,
And he will live to the east of all his brothers.”
Does this sound like anything to you???
Umm yeah, it's a prophesy that grows, and is part of Israel's history up till end time prophesies fulfilled in final days.
Now this is a prophesy showing Israel's enemies, and every nation's part in it!
How telling!
Well these specific events and time periods are time setters designed by God "in completeion" of all His work!
And every detail we need to guide us is literally in the Bible everywhere, in everything, every story, every parable!!! Even in geneologies, what I've seen in Genesis from Adam to Noah and through Cain's geneology is end times mindblowong! Along with many other things that I've seen in Genesis.
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Jesus was not ever coming on the "2000 year Millenial" like many thought whit hype of computers shutting down etc ... if you remember that hype. (And fyi, I didn't buy into that hype at all!) But now I do see a time that is pretty much a clear "appointed." (believe it or not, Trump is even in there!!)
Its a time to get His people ready, and a breathing space that many Christians will take as "peace and safety!" While His true people get to work, and this is in about 5 parables Jesus told .... and in prophesies from Genesis to Revelations!
I mean amazing!!
And from what I see it was NOT on the 2000 year anniversary of His birth, which was year 2000, (actually year 1996, because historians realized AD and BC are actually off by 4 years - imagine that, God may have purposely allowed this to provide a "delay" - as is mentioned many times throughout parables - "while the master delayed" or
"Bridegroom delayed"
"No man knows hour or day" as Jesus said! - But He pain stakingly did say when we see times and seasons we will KNOW! In other words in Matt 24 He literally giving instructions! Detailing things, where to look, and telling us as time gets near there are appointed times and signs and seasons to understand in the Bible that correlate to what we see in history and current events.
Because the times are literally in there. And as time gets closer ... He is revealing .... and even says "revealing" things would be done at appointed time!
6000 years from Jesus' Death and Resurrection, is the TIME!
Not on the day or hour, but in that time period. We are in the end of day 6!
Every 1000 years is a day!
It's a scripture starement in Peter and also in Psalms! And if your read Ecclesiastical A time foe everything chapter, it shows appointed times, along with its object lesson.
Each 1000 years is a time keeper of events ... from putting Cain and Abel in, to replacing Abel with Seth to the births of Isaac and Ishmael into the world and into the timeline, to prophesying every single thing!
So one thing I see is, the 2000 year anniversary of the 1st Resurrection which is 2029 to 2033 is the approximate date (its a marker, could be before or after, but its around this marker in the prophesy timeline) declaring the final acts of this world, and the fulfilling of the prophesies of the "2nd Resurection"
(So it makes sense that if the last act is like the 1st act which is related in every way, to be a like time of final fulfillment on the Millenials (each 1000 years!)
When he comes with a trumpet raises the dead and transforms the saints living into glorified bodies for the 7th day - 1000 year Millenials reign!!
And it's spelled out! Hidden being revealed now!
Babylon is US. And the kings in Daniel are stages of Us growth to destruction! It correlated to Ezekiel and Revelations and Matt 24 and every where else as threads to see times and purposes!
Ear to hear, eyes to see will be blessed ... everyone else is blinded because its a riddle!
Then why were there no humans when dinosaurs existed?
There were no dinosaurs DUMMY! Haha! Thought you were clever, didn't you?
Satan and God both conspired to put the bones in the ground in order to test your faith. They are both a couple of scholars and have been arguing with each other for millennia about how dumb people are. Satan argued that people are dumb enough to believe a bunch of bones in the ground prove dinosaurs existed, but God disagreed. They then shook hands and had a gentlemen's bet on the matter.
There has to be at least some form of higher power that doesn't exist under our laws. In our universe, everything has a beginning - and everything has an end. Everything that exists has come into existence because of something else. In order for our Universe to exist, there must be something outside of the laws of the universe (by extent, outside of our universe) that doesn't need something to cause it to exist - it just exists forever. It can't have a beginning, because every beginning is caused by something, and it must be sentient because otherwise it wouldn't cause the universe to exist. Therefore, it is logical to assume that 'it' must something similar to what we call God.
I believe in a Supernatural God. I believe that He loves us and wants to reach us to get us to heaven. My argument starts from a fundamental premise of existential uncertainty. For, given my premise, and assuming the best, I have shown that a God exists. I have shown that if you believe God doesn’t exist, then you are certain to go to Hell. But if you believe God does exist, then my argument gives a reason to believe in Him and His love for us, which is what any loving God would want. We all know that we exist. We can use the five senses to prove to ourselves that we exist. One of the ways that we can use our sense to validate the world around us is touch. Touching things like a marble floor or the leaves on the trees just outside the front door can lead us to believe that we are real and the world around us is real. We base our sciences on the five senses as they are the tools that lead us to understand the world around us through experiments. We have named that very practice Observational Science. A fundamental law in the physics realm that we have discovered using Observational Science states that matter cannot be created or destroyed. It only takes a different form. For example, when you burn wood in a fireplace, the wood is not disappearing, but turning into oxygen, carbon dioxide, and many other gaseous chemicals. We can also apply this principle to origins. What we have discovered regarding the Conservation of Matter contradicts that of what we have speculated through Historical Science: The spontaneous creation of the universe as a result of the Big Bang. All throughout history science and theory have been changing as a result of new discoveries that either prove or disprove a certain hypothesis, but the one thing that seems to stick throughout all the contradictions is The Big Bang Theory. If The Big Bang Theory cannot explain things like how the universe was created if matter cannot be created or destroyed or the faint sun paradox, then why aren't we discarding it and looking for another solution to the issue of origins? This is what leads me to the existential uncertainty part that makes my argument unique and strong. Evolution argues that we are all just animals that have evolved slowly over millions of years. Our species came out on top as a result of what many secular scientists call Natural Selection. If we came out on top when we allegedly emerged from Africa, then why is there still more powerful animals out there like gorillas and lions that could easily wipe out a human? Our existential crisis lies there. The lions and gorillas should have wiped out the human race assuming we were a more primitive and less evolved species back in that time period.
People generally want to make themselves feel significant, and by believing there is a god, it is much easier to say that our lives have meaning. Although having faith may bring peace to personal lives, it brings along with it severe problems such as segregation. The way we define culture is based on religion(vice-versa) and without religion the world would undergo far less human-led catastrophes(Hitler?)
Not true. I dont believe in God to feel good but because I know there is a God and has searched for a God and has found him. I dont just fake belief in God but want to have a good relationship with God. God is proven true through his son Jesus.There is truth out there but you cant just disregard truth based on what you feel is True. You just need more truth and better reasoning and may want to consider to search for a God. Because if you play the game "oh maybe God is real" then your playing a dangerous game. Because if God is real and you havent gotten Right with God through his son then your going to Hell. A Righteous God must send all Unrighteous to Hell. You can only be justified through his son. If you really care about the truth then you will really search for God sincerely.
If God prevents all evils, then certainly you should not be rewarded after your life. A person who believes in God believes in life after death, a life which never ends. And Surely, all Unrighteous will be sent to hell.
You are on your way to Hell where all evil will be confined. God is giving you time because He wants you to be saved from Hell, but you are going to make your bad mouth be heard until your words are drowned in the fire, aren't you?
"If your God is righteous then why hasn't evil been abolished?"
God created the universe as a perfect place, but Adam and Eve fell into sin. God gave everyone free will. In other words, He gave us a choice. We tend to choose evil over all other things. We are immoral, sinful beings that need a Saviour. God gave us a choice so that He would be worshipped by truly willing beings. It makes glory all the more amazing. You are blinded by your bias thinking and that will, sadly, get you ended up in Hell.
Tottally agree, it gives false sense of belonging to something bigger than just being a piece of meet, blood and bones that have to reproduce and than live happily until they dissapear.
There are other psychological, socialogical and practical reasons why religions came to be, but most of those have disappeared as the society/civilisation has advanced. I firmly believe that at a certain level of society development, religion was practical thing to have, but as a tool it lost its purpose when society moved on and created more sofisticated tools due to more collected knowledge, experience and applied logical reasoning.
1. T: If there is no God how was the universe created?
A: I don't know, but you choose to jump to a conclusion instead of waiting for a better answer. Also, how was god created? Also, I could use this same argument to "prove" Santa created the universe.
T: He's eternal, he was always there.
A: I could use the same to state why the universe is here.
2. T: If there is no God, how do we get our morals?
A: Morals come from evolution, as a human who doesn't harm other human beings will overall increase reproduction. Also I could use this argument to justify why Santa is an almighty creator.
3. T: Life is so incredibly unlikely how could you not believe in a intelligent designer?
A: Life is not unlikely, as the universe is so huge, and theres been so much time, its definitely wouldn't be a stretch to say that the universe would have life.
4. T: So many people believe in god though!
A: Basically the whole world believed the earth was flat at one point. People in North Korea think that their country is the best country. Bad argument.
5. T: The universe is so complex, it entails a god.
The universe being complex is a human opinion, to another life form it could be simple, and boring, to another amazing, and unimaginable.
1) If Santa created the universe, then Santa would be God??? Plus, do not throw out any solution too quickly. I could say that the best way to get to space would be to be launched into space via a nuclear bomb. You would have to explain why that would not work.
God is eternal because God created time. You have to explain how time began. Otherwise, the universe cannot be eternal, otherwise, I would conclude infinte time passed.
2) That does not explain a lot of morals. Plus, why is increasing reproduction good or bad? Plus, if Santa created the universe, then Santa would be God???
3) Fun Fact: If you needed to get correct a 100-digit password to get life, the chances of you reaching that even with the size of the observable universe and several billion year universe lifespan, chances are you're not going to guess the password right. The question that people often ignore is how likely is life? Even scientists do not know the answer to that question.
4) To be fair, that is a bad argument.
5) Complexity is not a human opinion. It is like the difference between a pure black screen and the Mona Lisa. A pure black screen contains low complexity and can be easily compressed, whereas the Mona Lisa has a much higher complexity and cannot be as easily compressed. It is not subjective.
Yes, evolution is a good explanation of how our morals arose - groups could outperform individuals but required trust, cooperation, etc.
Evolution better explains our blend of cooperation and competition than a morality derived from an all-good, loving god.
100-digit password
If I throw a bucket of sand up in the air and then try to calculate the odds that each grain of sand would land exactly when and where it did - at what digit number would we conclude that I never threw the bucket?
Complexity is not a human opinion.
Complexity alone is subjective - relative complexity, like you are referring to, can be determined.
Yes, evolution is a good explanation of how our morals arose - groups could outperform individuals but required trust, cooperation, etc.
Naïve evolutionists think that everything evolved because it benefits survival. This is simply false. The reason is deeply rooted in biology and is called inclusive fitness, or fitness in relation to others. It can be explained like this:
Human females preferentially choose a mate who shows evidence of health and good genetic quality. A primate with strong, muscular arms, teeth, and feet is a more attractive mate.
If a primate has offspring, each offspring receives half the genes from the male and half the genes from the female. Biologists call this passing on genes from parent to offspring.
Thus offspring can receive genes from their father that make them healthy and well-adapted for living, passing genes to their offspring, but they can also inherit genes from their mother that make them sickly and maladapted.
The fittest offspring will survive and pass their genes on to the next generation, whereas the sickly and maladapted offspring will die, which cancels out their passing their genes on to the next generation.
The moral argument for evolution is not about selfish genes. It is about altruistic genes. The genes that allow for a person to take care of his children and make sacrifices to raise them, which are the same kind of genes that allow a person to protect the weak and helpless.
Inclusive fitness describes genes that promote survival, health, and reproductive success in relation to others. Morals are necessary for groups to operate effectively.
Evolution better explains our blend of cooperation and competition than a morality derived from an all-good, loving god.
Morality, as we use the concept, could not have resulted from the process of natural selection.
Natural selection did not create the higher order processing that allows us to reason about justice, mercy, right and wrong, or about the kinds of complex emotions that lead to moral judgments and prosocial behavior. The biological mechanisms required for such reasoning are qualitatively different from mechanisms like vision, hearing, or digestion.
If I throw a bucket of sand up in the air and then try to calculate the odds that each grain of sand would land exactly when and where it did - at what digit number would we conclude that I never threw the bucket?
Accepting the conclusion (never threw the bucket) is one that derilects the evidence (the way each grain of sand is randomly distributed in mid-air).
The odds of each individual grain of sand landing exactly as it was intended to when it escaped the bucket, given the evidence, is one.
Complexity alone is subjective
Naïve evolutionists believe that every evolutionary phenomenon occurred through random mutations which transformed species or trait frequencies (or which inhibited or increased some harmful or beneficial trait). However, this is not the case. Evolution has not occurred simply through the accidental accumulation over time of random mutations in our genomes.
Not a scientist, eh? We know the universe did not arise by natural means out of nothing due up the 1st Law of Thermo and that the universe is not eternal due to the 2nd Law. It is not your ignorance that is the problem, but your anti-science naturalism.
God represents a way to live life. If there was no God then there would be no reason for people to not do whatever they want. Yes there would be rules and such in the framework of our government. But internally speaking, there would be no need to follow such rules. A world without God is no world indeed.
As for the problems for segregation, well you're just basing it off of certain individuals who chose for themselves to pervert the foundational value of their "religion", those who use religion as an excuse. They don't represent the whole of religion. It's more about the interpersonal relationship with God and oneself.
As for the Hitler comment, well he was just a corrupted individual. I'm pretty sure there are corrupted atheists too like Mao Ze Dong, Joseph Stalin, and Benito Mussolini. Religion doesn't define a person, it's ones individual morals that define him/her self. No individual person is a representation of their whole entire faith, that's just silly and absurd.
Actually the foundational theme in just about all religion is to love each other. In one sense, religion can just be another way for living out their moral code. Just how you carry it out is a different matter.
Christianity does not serve to make one feel significant, but humble oneself. It brings meaning and clarity to an otherwise pointless life. Religion brings peace where it can, but it must bring seperation, however this and the other disasters would happen regardless.
You put it perfetly. Jesus Christ told us to humble ourselves before his father. So that eliminates the argument of "faith is only here to make people feel significant" right there. :D
So does that prove anything? we are here to present evidences on whether God is true or not, We are not talking about the "affects" of religion. Based on your opinion about segregation, yes its true but does it affect the so-called "Ultimate Truth".
You don't seem to understand God, or people, or regimes, or war, or religion.
As far as wars it's not true of motivation if you think Hitler was inspired by religion. Just because He isolated an idea and phrase thar had an appearance of religion. It was done so for greed and power and hate.
There is no where in the New Testaments where Jesus or His followers command or even suggest murder.
And there is a time for peace and a time for war.
So the Christian response was to sacrafice our lives to stop Hitler and the atrocities.
So if you want to blame defending the innocent that can't help themselves, then YES religion does cause war.
But religion didn't come through Hitler evil regime, it came from a Christian people Clothed in compassion, and with the force of defending those who couldn't defend themselves.
Same with the Civil War! Blame it on Christians to not sit back while others were trampled on. Instead over 300,000 people from the North lost their lives or were injured. Over 300,000 gave up someone they loved to help others. They gave up a parent of young children, a spouse in a young family, they gave up physical wholeness in the name of religion. You are absolutely correct!
Does The Truth make you feel significant or does it reveal just how tiny you are in the grand scheme of things?
The idea that you can keep people from naturally segregating themselves is preposterous.
The idea that you can do away with religion is also a fantasy.
You know what else would end segregation, religion, and human led catastrophe?
Wiping out all of humanity in one movement.
No, God is The Truth, and that means if you love God you love The Truth. If you love The Truth, it should be evident that we all fall short and have been shown much charity. Pass it on, show some charity. Love eachother.
Nobody will ever never be able to give physical proof that God exist; and nobody will ever be able to give such a proof that God goes not exist due to fact that if God created universe he has to be an outside force which we can not experience since we can not get out of material universe.
What we can do is use our logic and reason to proof if our reasoning about religion and God is logically stable and correct. There are at least two levels to consider when reasoning about the God and religion. The obvious and easier questions when it comes to discussion about God and religion are about particular religions that humanity have come up with during the history. here we can argue about the claims that different religions have come up such as Buddhas or Jesus existence, mythical events like Noah or Moses escape from Egypt, Mohamed's rise to heaven, and so on. I think that to this level belongs even discussion about relation between religions and reasons why there are different religions in the world and why religions come and disappeared during the history.
On this level I wonder why would God wait about 200 000 years before he revealed himself to humans. If one is to believe archeology, humans have existed on earth in form of homo sapience for about 200 000 years. Christianity has been on Earth for about 2000 years, and Islam even shorter than this. Judaism have been somewhat longer, yet it is still just a small fraction of human history during which we are to know the God. We also know for sure that before Judaism there have been other religions such as those of Egyptians, Greeks or Romans. Even before that people have cherished other Gods, which in modern religions is one of biggest sins. Why would God wait for so many thousands years, and allow people to pray to other Gods when it seems such a big deal for him that people praise only Him? It is a contradiction.
If we tackle question from the biblical point and accept that God created Adam & Eve, how come than that those other religions and ancient gods came to be and why he didn't act in time than.
Same apply to fact that other religions exist in different parts of the world. I am thinking about Buddhism, Hinduism, and south-American cultures of Mayas, Incas and Aztecs. According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam it is one of biggest sins to praise other Gods than one that is popularized by those religions. It just does not make sense to believe that either of those three is correct in its claims.
On second, more meta-level there is discussion about necessity of a creator and religion at all. Here belongs questions like "why does universe exist" or "how it become". While I believe we can reason about question on both levels, the first one is obviously easier and second one will include more subjective beliefs. My own standpoint is that we don't need God to explain those questions. It might appear to be handy to have God as an explanation to some existential questions, but it really is not more handy than to have nothing at all. Using God as explanation, as a creator or cause to explain why universe exist is a trivial solution. It just is not satisfactory to a reasonable being to accept such trivial explanations that a higher "non understandable" power has created universe with higher goals in mind which we can't understand or know about but have to accept exist.
But do we really need a creator of a universe? I believe that answer on this question depends on how egoistic as a person one gets. Human beings seems to have need of importance, of being part of something bigger than themselves. Partly it is true, we are all part of nature; but there has to be nothing special in that fact. There is not much more significance in fact that we are part of a nature, as it is in fact that stones, sand, world seas, or a trees in a forest, or Moon or any other particle is also a part of universe. If we can accept that universe just exist, without special purpose or reason, and that world, and life, and finally we as a specie has simply developed because of certain physical laws, that certain answers would be actually possible to answer and world might be a better place. If one really think about it, having a God as an ultimate creator of universe is actually just shifting the problem one step further. If anything that exists has to have a creator, than who created a God. If God does not need a reason to exist, than there is no difference to say that universe does not need a reason (creator) to exist. Those two claims are equivalent and question is which one can accept as an axiom from which to derive the rest of reasoning.
I dare to claim that world would be much better place if we can realize that God is totally unnecessary step in that process since it adds nothing of substance to the universe. Why would world be a better place without a God belongs to another debate :).
If one really think about it, having a God as an ultimate creator of universe is actually just shifting the problem one step further. If anything that exists has to have a creator, than who created a God. If God does not need a reason to exist, than there is no difference to say that universe does not need a reason (creator) to exist. Those two claims are equivalent and question is which one can accept as an axiom from which to derive the rest of reasoning.
Way to freaking go, that is something I've been trying to explain for a while.
We seem to be logical beings evovled into what we are in a material universe where everything has cause and consequence. As such we tend to fill in all gaps and holes or our knowledge the best way we can based on our experience of that universe. God as explanation is easy (and trivial) one that gives answer on many problems which we are/were anable to unswer. People believed that Sun is circling around the Earth, and that Earth is a disk from which one could fall down. There is no difference in other matters, albeit certain one are probably impossible to answer since we can't get physical evidence to support any of theories (such as if there is God or not). Also religion has offered a simple trivial answers about world which maybe were needed in a certain period of human history. Today there are much better answers and no need to rely on dogmatic dictatorship such as religion offer.
An actually very lame argument considering the universe is physical, and therefore has to obey physical laws that would be broken by an evolutionary explanation.
God, on the other hand, is immaterial, and therefore is not bound by physical laws such as a regress.
There's no nice way to say it, this is stupid. If the universe were eternal, it would break down through entropy. It must have had a beginning as it is undergoing entropy, the entropy started at a point in time........and it wasn't the stupid singularity which was nothing but it exploded and tuned into you.
The Bible answered this stupidity 2000 years ago......."they worship and serve the creature (created thing) rather than the creator". You're trying to equate the universe with God, the created thing with the creator. There is no comparison.
If the universe were eternal, it would break down through entropy.
Not really, Mr. Saint. The 2nd law of Thermodynamics to which you are referring applies ONLY to closed systems. Which the Universe decidedly is not. And besides, that 2nd Law does NOT claim that closed systems will "break down" totally. No...it only posits that the rate of entropy will increase over time, if no new order or energy is infused into the system.
But as I said, the Universe is NOT closed, and with Supernovas exploding and also with Dark Energy, it seemingly is armed with additional power sources and order-giving parameters all the time.
It must have had a beginning as it is undergoing entropy, the entropy started at a point in time........and it wasn't the stupid singularity which was nothing but it exploded and tuned into you.
"Must" have had a beginning? Who says? It could be eternal. It is just that out limited minds are incapable of grasping the notion of eternal or or infinity, as we have zero experience with either term.
And the singularity was not "nothing." if it existed that is. It was an infinitesimally small but unimaginably power-laden point of energy and heat. So much energy that if it were the size of the Earth, an equivalent of one grain of sand on that Earth would be more power than has been unleashed by man in ALL the wars, bombs, cars rockets, machines, etc. over the history of the Earth.
The Bible answered this stupidity 2000 years ago.
Sorry, the bible is a collection of Hebrew mythology and stories and poetry and allegory that does not even ADDRESS the issue of Cosmology, let alone answer it. (I discount the book of Genesis, obviously, as I believe it to be a purely allegorical tale meant to remind its audience of the sanctity of the Sabbath while they were in Babylonian captivity and losing sight of their traditions.)
You're trying to equate the universe with God, the created thing with the creator. There is no comparison.
I am not trying to do that at all. Since I do not believe in god. But you are right in claiming no comparison. As the known Universe and its attendant Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics are quite real and provable, while your god is neither of those things.
Your argument is self-contradictory since without God, logic and reason don't make sense. Why? because you can't empirically test them without using them, which is circular reasoning, therefore you argument is ludicrous
Could not have put it better. We don't understand all the laws of the universe and energy but that means we haven't worked them out yet. May be human beings can never explain all things. Yes some people may attribute unknown and undiscovered laws of energy or the universe to god, they can also blame the fairies. It is creative and imaginative and a very human response to unknown dilemmas and questions. The questions you pose about god cannot be answered because all religions are based on faith. Why do we need this? to reassure ourselves because many people cannot face up to the fact that they are just another animal species and part of a natural process that will start and finish.
If you want to be an animal, then by all means be an animal. That means you are no better than the turkey I ate on Thanksgiving day. I'm a man, made in the image of God. You can be a turkey if you want to.
You think the world would be a better place without religion?
That's pretty narrow. You must not know the depth of possitive impact religion has had in communities, in families, and in the lives of individuals.
If you withdrawal religion you should not assume that people would act on the inspirations they have acted on. Now for this example I want to stick just with Christian faiths, and not cults, like Westborough Baptist, or others, and not other religions like Islam, not even Judaism. I think that's fair, because stereo typing any world view is inaccurate and unfair. So you can't lump them together.
If you want take each separate and tell me all about the picture without it! And if you feel the need to include crusades, then please do complete homework and describe why Christians were there to begin with.
It's like the old popular Christmas movie "it's a wonderful life"
At first glance you don't see the impact of life without something or someone. So honestly evaluate a real picture without it, and without the Christians who did things they did because of the influence particuarly of Jesus in their lives.
Why is America here? What motivated us to be us?
And also while convincing me avoid the meaningless arguments everyone "uses" of small groups that acted outside of Christian teachings. Like Salem witch hunts, or the grand # of about 8 random individuals at random times who independently assaulted abortion clinics.
Because obviously I'm looking for a factual and reasonable argument from you to back your statements!
If you are asking for proof, you are asking for truth.
If you believe in truth, no truth could be unless The Truth was in it.
The evidence for God is all around you. When you ask for God to be proven, it is like asking "prove yo me that it is true that there is such a thing as truth!"
It doesn't take someone particularly smart to see this is an unreasonable demand.
First of all, one can prove a God or Creator exists, just using the universe and logic. You do not need any other explanation. For example. Since the universe is revolving, there has to be somewhere for it to revolve. Since everything is in some form moving, then there has to be a mover for this motion. Therefore, there has to be some divine omnipotence that is constantly doing all the things in the universe.
Secondly, why do we need billions of years to discover or evolve? A short time ago, scientists said that mankind is only a few hundred years old. Now they think that the humans started in the Ape-like form, 6-7 million years ago. Do you think those scientists will continue finding more and more humans fossils for the next 10-20 billion years? Most likely they will stop discovering any "humans" fossils in the next 5 billion years. Will you complain? I doubt it.
Thirdly, why does there have to be one ultimate Creator? If the physical world is all one - yes, it revolves - it is moving - what about all those atoms? Are all those atoms moving? What forces do those atoms have to move by themselves? Can it be one material, flowing physical world without an ultimate divine essence that is the energy behind it all?
Also, what do you mean by "why would God wait about 200 000 years before he revealed himself to humans"? Is religion created in one day, or God in one day? Do the trees just grow big one day, or do they have to grow day by day? Do they grow bigger with each passing day? Do they have a certain age limit? They might have 50-70 years, but not much more, because that is all that is given to them. Why should our religious ideas be any different? Why should a God has to reveal himself to humans in this specific time frame? Did He needs to wait until we became more intelligent, or until we learned to speak or ...?
When Adam ate from the tree, does that mean God lost something? Then what? And does this mean that God now owes us anything? Is that why we are praying? Is that why humans want to please Him, or should we please Him just because of the fact that He is the Creator and He deserves that?
Also, you should not need to rely on other religions for your argumentation, because each religion has the right to persuade a person to believe in its ideas. That is the difference, rather than the fact that one religion believes in the existence of God and the other one doesn't. Like Judaism, Islam and Christianity were at war with each other hundreds of years ago, they are now spreading the same message: "God exists". Since you are using the Bible to argue, then you have to accept that the Bible is an absolute truth and you have to believe in God and accept Christianity. The Torah is for Jews, the Qur'an is for Muslims, and the Bible is for Christians.
And about the other religions: they are talking about the same Creator. Although you might believe they are talking about some God that is not talking about the same God as the one in the Bible, yet they are talking about the same God. That's why they are divided in so many different religions, because all those people might be saying something different, but nevertheless they are speaking about the same thing, and they are all speaking about the same Creator, same Maker, and same Master.
Dear friend, you are very wrong, and you need to stop giving those false ideas, because only God knows what is good for you.
He should know me inside and out. He would know what I'd ask and why is be asking it. Given that, he should just give me an answer outright.
But if you must know I'd ask how he can let this dispute over his existence continue if he does undoubtedly exist. How he can expect a shitty storybook of absurdities written thousands of years ago and a universe that appears natural in every way to convince people a divine being exists; and how he can punish people for not believing in him given this information AND that he plans all of our heretic lives from start to finish.
There's much, MUCH more. But in the end, id rather go to hell than live amongst a jelous, egomaniacle, bloodthirsty, hypocritical, arrogant, scumbag like him.
Not really, I was of course refering mostly to the "popular" God of judeo-christianity, but it really applies to any and all supernatural deities that anyone has ever thought up including the goddess of Wicca, Zeus, Buddha, ect.
This is the stupidest stuff a person can say. Keep on going with it and you are going to get what you want, to be tossed like a piece of rotten garbage into the fire pit of Hell where you will fry like an eternal sausage....and be haunted forever by the memory of every moment of your time when you could have believed God is good and He loves you. Go on now if you want to. This kind of garbage is why you spit so much filth, you are full of it and can't get enough.
You're not very intelligent, are you? Swearing shows a weak mind trying to express itself forcefully....lacking verbal skills. It's a habit of people who have had teeth fall out of their mouth...they get mad and spit and sputter until their teeth fall out of their mouth. Do you have all of your teeth, I mean the ones God caused to grow in your mouth, not implants or replacements, not dentures? My guess is that you have been too stupid in life to keep your teeth in your mouth.
This is stupid because you say you would rather fry in Hell like an eternal sausage, forever burning like a piece of rubbish is the garbage pit of Hell, than to live with your creator in Heaven...
It's stupid to say because you are asking for it. It's stupid because if you realized that you are going to get exactly what you want, you wouldn't be asking for it. God loves you and will give you what you really want....you really want to burn in Hell rather than be with Him through the blood of His Son, then your blood is on your own stupid head.
Correction: I say that heaven and hell and your creator don't exist. I say they have no basis in reality and no evidence to indicate their existence.
If you think it's logical that a creator would provide no evidence that he exists except for one holy book out of thousands that bare striking resemblance to it, and then burn people for eternity for not be living in it then you are the one that is stupid.
Well, when you become God I will believe what you say...and that will be never because you are nothing but another punk who thinks he is better, smarter, stonger than God.
I'm already better than your god. I can speak, reason, engage in conversation, provide evidence, provide data, and I clearly exist in reality. Your god can do none of these things. If you'd rather remain skeptical about every human discovery in history no matter how undeniably proven they are in favor of a book written by men who understood not even 5% of what we know now then that's totally your call. Just don't act like I'M the jackass for using the brain your supposed god gave me.
You cannot prove that you exist in reality. All you can prove is that you are dying. You don't have to prove it man, don't kill yourself in front of me, you'll end up in Hell when you still have time to be saved from it.
How about i prove i exist by mailing you an ounce of that dank OG Kush? And its funny, if im going to hell then i have everything to live for and should cherish every second of life. But you go to a better place than this. So why dont you wanna just off yourself and claim your prize?
Jackass is an appropriate word, and I will not consider it as cussing or I would not respond to you in any detail. You indeed are as stubborn as a mule, and I guess I can understand because you are afraid to be honest in admitting your moral depravity. It's ok, God knows what you did and He still loves you. He loves you so much that He died in your place, paid your price, so that in His resurrection you can be forgiven of the sins He died for, and that was for all of your sins....all your dirty deeds and evil doings, He died for them, to save you from Hell, because even though you were at enmity with Him, He loved you and still loves you.
Jackass is an appropriate word, and I will not consider it as cussing or I would not respond to you in any detail.
Wait, so we get to decide what is and isnt a cussword? Then i dont consider tittyfucker a cussword so thats what ill call you now. Do you like that tittyfucker?
You indeed are as stubborn as a mule,
Well every time i read your arguments i go "HE-HAW!"
and I guess I can understand because you are afraid to be honest in admitting your moral depravity.
I'm an eagle scout in the BSA with over 200 hours of community service. K bud
It's ok, God knows what you did and He still loves you. He loves you so much that He died in your place, paid your price, so that in His resurrection you can be forgiven of the sins He died for, and that was for all of your sins....all your dirty deeds and evil doings, He died for them, to save you from Hell, because even though you were at enmity with Him, He loved you and still loves you.
Oh sweet then im good then. Brb gonna shoot up a planned parenthood
Digging up bones is not discovering that your uncle was a monkey. By the way you act, I might believe your mother was a monkey, but you don't need to show me any pile of bones for me to believe it. Bones are only bones. They are not your relatives. If they are your relatives, you should show some respect and bury the bones properly and leave them alone.
Digging up thousands of bones with similar DNA and ever increasingly human body structures is.
bones are only bones. they are not your relatives
Lol thats literally EXACTLY what they are.
if they are your relatives you should show some respect and bury the bones properly and leave them alone
That would certainly be convenient for your worldview wouldnt it? Sorry digging up 2 million year old hominids doesnt really pull any heartstrings with serious scientists. But its interesting you say that. Our early ancestors actually did bury their dead. Weve found human bones from over 10,000 years ago buried in positions with flowers and other tools. People buried their dead long before christianity came along.
The bones do not have ever increasingly human body structure. They are dead. They are bones. If they are not human bones, they are dead bones which are only a pile of dead bones, not a pile of dead bones morphing into humans.
All you are doing is trying to convince yourself that your life is justified and your moral failures are meaningless....and then blame God who you say is not there for all of your problems. You are setting yourself against God and losing the battle, but somehow the dope you smoke keeps you from seeing that you are winning nothing in death and losing everything in Hell which is the only place sin can be contained by everlasting fire. Laugh now, smoke another joint, and tell yourself how great you are if that's the way you want to go out.
The bones do not have ever increasingly human body structure
Yes they do. They show evidence of bipedal movement. The jaw structure changes. The hand structures change. The skull cavity gets larger and extends foward to house a larger frontal lobe. All of these things consistently change between hominids from different points in time.
They are dead. They are bones.
And? Just because they're dead and bones doesn't mean we can't learn shit from them.
If they are not human bones, they are dead bones which are only a pile of dead bones, not a pile of dead bones morphing into humans.
But if you have a skeleton from 2 million years ago, one from 1.5 million years ago, one from 1 million years ago, one from 500,000 years ago and one from today you can clearly see how these species continued to change in many ways over such a long period of time.
All you are doing is trying to convince yourself that your life is justified and your moral failures are meaningless
I don't need to prove shit to myself. I'm showing you that your "all atheists are immoral" belief is flat out wrong and has zero basis in reality.
....and then blame God who you say is not there for all of your problems.
I have never once blamed an imaginary character for my mistakes or other bad things that happen. But religion in general and Christianity in general can cause atrocities to occur absolutely.
You are setting yourself against God and losing the battle, but somehow the dope you smoke keeps you from seeing that you are winning nothing in death and losing everything in Hell which is the only place sin can be contained by everlasting fire.
I don't believe God or hell exists so that's a pretty empty threat. I smoke weed because it feels nice to relax every so often.
Laugh now, smoke another joint, and tell yourself how great you are if that's the way you want to go out.
That sounds like the best way to go out. Would you rather go out hating yourself and believing you're just a worthless little sinning piece of shit? That just sounds miserable. No wonder you hate most things that are fun in this world.
Well, when you become God I will believe what you say...and that will be never because you are nothing but another punk who thinks he is better, smarter, stonger than God.
Excuse me, was I talking to you again? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be talking to you again. I really don't want to read your stuff since I can tell by the first word it's nothing I want to see.
You didn't answer the question. You said you would prefer being in Hell over being in Heaven with God. God determines when your time is over, if you want I can pray that you get your wish. Why should I care where you are going if you don't care....you want an eternity void of anything good from God, void of any sign that He is good, so why not ask me to pray that God give it to you quickly so you don't have to sit there and whine about your problems and smoke your brains out trying to live in a different reality?
The only passive aggressive threat being made is your passive-aggressiveness against God. On one hand, you say you want eternity without any sign of His goodness in the fire of Hell, and on the other hand you hate Him and want Him to be gone now. You are committing a slow suicide, trying to forget time by smoking your brains out before time is all gone.
If you want, I can pray that God will give you what you want without dragging time through a joint. Why don't you man up to your own words and ask me to pray God give you what you really want now?
Smoke a joint, chicken, and enjoy it while you can. You can't make God go away, you are only making yourself go to Hell....and God sent me here to try to talk some sense into you so you stop killing yourself and you just want to blow smoke at the messenger to kill my brain the way yours is being killed.
You're a pusher, do you know that? A pusher....dope head pusher pushing dope, and you think Hell does not have extra punishments for you?
You said you would prefer being in Hell over being in Heaven with God.
If your god exists in the same way the bible describes him then yes I would rather be in hell than heaven with a monster who thinks a just punishment for incredulity is eternal torture.
God determines when your time is over, if you want I can pray that you get your wish.
And I can talk to my cat. We will get the same results.
Why should I care where you are going if you don't care....
Now you're getting it!
you want an eternity void of anything good from God, void of any sign that He is good, so why not ask me to pray that God give it to you quickly so you don't have to sit there and whine about your problems and smoke your brains out trying to live in a different reality?
It's not that I want hell. You misunderstand. If the options are either spend eternity kissing the ass of a monstrous being who would punish people with eternal hellfire for sins as unharmful as incredulity toward him, or eternity separated from that monster, I would of course choose the latter. Thing is, those aren't the options. As much as you believe they are. I don't think we go ANYWHERE when we die. You go in the dirt and your consciousness ends. That's it. So because of that I want to live my life on earth to the fullest. You see if this life is all I have, as I believe it is, then I have everything to live for. But if you believe you're going to an eternal paradise of love and rainbows and whatever then why don't YOU pray for YOU to die soon so you can skip this mortal coil and live in paradise?
The only passive aggressive threat being made is your passive-aggressiveness against God.
No you literally said you'll pray for me to die. That's all you asshole
On one hand, you say you want eternity without any sign of His goodness in the fire of Hell,
You can't have a god who has goodness as a quality but created a pit of fire for tossing sinful humans into. Those two things are totally contradictory.
and on the other hand you hate Him and want Him to be gone now.
I don't hate him, I just don't think he exists. But if we're assuming he exists for the sake of argument then yes I think he's a pretty horrible and unjust being worthy of disfavor.
You are committing a slow suicide, trying to forget time by smoking your brains out before time is all gone.
Life is a slow suicide.
If you want, I can pray that God will give you what you want without dragging time through a joint.
Why would I want to die? Your premise makes no sense.
Why don't you man up to your own words and ask me to pray God give you what you really want now?
Why don't you man up and quit believing in fucking fairy tales you brainwashed cunt?
Smoke a joint, chicken, and enjoy it while you can. You can't make God go away, you are only making yourself go to Hell....and God sent me here to try to talk some sense into you so you stop killing yourself and you just want to blow smoke at the messenger to kill my brain the way yours is being killed.
And you can't make god exist. As much as you want it to be true.
You're a pusher, do you know that? A pusher....dope head pusher pushing dope, and you think Hell does not have extra punishments for you?
I don't even sell weed lol. And if your god would punish someone for selling a plant on earth then your god is even more monstrously unjust then I first thought. You're a pusher. A pusher of nonsense. A pusher of idiotic myths. A pusher of an archaic view of reality that is at odds with all scientific progress in the last 1000 years. You're pushing a drug even more potent that marijuana. It's the opiate of the people. You spread your nonsense religion and suck people into abandoning rationality and abandoning a reasonable view of reality in favor of comforting stories and fairy tales and an imaginary friend who will hold your hand through life. Well wake up fuckhead. Nobody is holding your hand. Nobody is pulling the cosmic strings of your life. You're not that important. Get over yourself oh mighty messenger
So do you want me to pray that you get your wish of being Hell or not? Yes or no. Don't be a smoke sucking chicken. You said you want to be in Hell. I can pray that God give you your wish quickly. Just ask and I will do that for you. dopehead.
Humans make the choices, it (God) just set the motion in place and let it be. Also, God has a will of the Universe, and it (the universe) will go whichever way it (God) wants it to go. And so, humans must decide what they believe in. God apparently, knows what humans are going to choose, however, IMO God did not say "this person is going to believe in this because I wanted it to" (there is no favoring) Something must have happened between when we first existed on this earth, to where we are now that has "separated" us from God.
Humans make the choices, it (God) just set the motion in place and let it be.
Humans only make the choices that god makes for them. Also, the "let it be" part fucks with prayer and really the whole bible. He doesnt let things be, he sticks his fingers in human affairs all the time according to christian theology.
Also, God has a will of the Universe, and it (the universe) will go whichever way it (God) wants it to go. And so, humans must decide what they believe in.
1) you cant possibly know what you claim to above (god's will of the universe)
2) You dont choose to believe anything. Belief is not a switch you can turn on and off. You need evidence to persuade you to (ie: why you dont believe in santa anymore). And god has left shit to no evidence save for a horribly written, error ridden story book and a universe that reflects a natural creation in every way.
God apparently, knows what humans are going to choose, however, IMO God did not say "this person is going to believe in this because I wanted it to" (there is no favoring)
1) It doesnt matter if he wants someone to believe something or not (and the fact that he'd create people that believe something he doesnt want/like is stupid (ie the 1st commandment).
2) He doesnt only know what were going to "choose" he planned for us to choose what we do which makes no sense if we get punished for believing the wrong things.
3) again claiming knowledge you cant possibly know
Something must have happened between when we first existed on this earth, to where we are now that has "separated" us from God.
1) that thing that has separated us was caused by god with his full prior knowledge of it based on his omnipotence and omniscience.
2) That thing would be that adam and eve story based on christian theology which is flawed in countless ways, AND if it ISNT the adam and eve story then theres no reason to believe that such a thing did happen because it would be nothing short of a wild guess based on nothing.
D00d, pick and choose what you may. I read what you're writing and i understand completely.
I never claimed I know what God is thinking or deciding. It's what I choose to believe, there's a big difference, don't you see the difference? I'm not claiming anything other that what I believe to be truth. I'm not saying you're wrong and I am right. Right and wrong doesn't matter at this point in time. I choose to believe in what i believe in for various reasons that I care not to express over and over and over on this site full of fucking trolls and atheists and then there are the agnostics that say "no one knows for sure anything so I choose to not believe in anything". I've got a choice and I use my opportunity to choose to believe, unlike others. So be it.
I never claimed I know what God is thinking or deciding
when you say things such as "god does this" or "god thinks that", that's exactly what youre doing. Now if you back it with a bible verse than youre justified in your belief of that (not that it is true) but if you CANT, its the equivalent of a giant guess.
Not to mention you cant really go around stating that he does or knows or thinks things until you prove his existence in the first place. Otherwise the debate is as pointless as debating the color of a unicorns horn.
It's what I choose to believe, there's a big difference, don't you see the difference?
No, i dont.
1) Nobody chooses to believe anything. Youre either convinced that something is true or youre not. For instance, try to believe in santa if you can just choose to believe things. You cant, and i cant because we are convinced he doesnt exist. Belief is not a switch you can turn on and off.
2) Also, belief doesnt determine truth. You can believe something, and i can be flat out wrong. For instance, there are people who genuinely believe that the holocaust never happened. Just because they believe that, doesnt mean its true because obviously it isnt. THe same goes for you believing in god and what god does/thinks.
I'm not claiming anything other that what I believe to be truth
What you BELIEVE to be the truth. Not what IS the truth. Theres the difference. Im pointing out that according to the bible and the definition of god (omnipotent, omniscient, and sometimes omnibenevolent), science, logic, ect that god probably doesnt exist and free will under your theology cant exist.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I am right. Right and wrong doesn't matter at this point in time
1) then why are you debating me if youre not gonna prove youre correct and it doesnt matter anyways
2) i beg to differ, the existence of a god is a huge deal. People actually believe some crazy shit and its really harmfull to society and progress.
I choose to believe in what i believe in for various reasons that I care not to express over and over and over on this site full of fucking trolls and atheists
1) you dont choose shit
2) then why are you here and why bother debating me?
3) yeah, atheists and their logical arguments can be such a pain in the ass
and then there are the agnostics that say "no one knows for sure anything so I choose to not believe in anything".
1) they dont choose, they are just unconvinced.
2) And they have a valid position, nobody can know based on the nature of gods. They are untestable and outside of time and space (which is illogical and impossible btw) so how can we know? We cant, and any who claim TO know are lying or deluded.
3) agnostics are basically atheists. You can be an agnostic atheist. its actually kind of redundant but whatever
I've got a choice and I use my opportunity to choose to believe, unlike others. So be it.
1) You dont choose anything
2) I use my opportunity to do something productive with my life and live it knowing its the only one i get. I choose to investigate the TRUTH behind our existence and put a stop to fairytales and nonsense
The point of this debate between you and I is simple.
You're giving your opinion on what you believe to be true.
I am giving my opinion on what I believe is true.
Both of us will find out who is correct eventually ; either through death or through life.
People have choices and you beg to differ, that's fine. I know I have a choice in what I believe. It's a shame you do not understand how much choice you have.
People do say and believe in "crazy" things, however, I do not. Nothing is crazy about me believing in God, it's as natural as my lungs needing the oxygen and as natural as my heart pumping automatically the blood and oxygen to my brain and the rest of my body.
Humans are curious creatures and believe in many things.
Are all beliefs in anything "correct"? Probably not. Are all beliefs in God, "correct"? Who knows? Perhaps, the fact that there are many Gods means that due to cultural indifferences and language and societal boundaries, we're all speaking of the same deity. Crazy? Nah. Observant to actuality? Yes.
Atheists are hardly a belief system that I worry about. Agnostics especially. Trust me, I have more atheist friends than I have religious friends. And trust me, they've got more logical and intelligent arguments than most atheists on this board. I'm almost positive all you've ran into in your life are "crazy" religious people, and then you assume that there is no "intelligent conversation", because you have the mindset that the masses of the people that utilize religious in a negative way; which allows you to think "Man, these people are crazy and hurtful to society".
Yes, I agree, the "crazy" ones are the ones using religion and spiritually to hurt society and manipulate people for the sake of control. You completely disregard the good in spirituality and religious thought; which makes your mindset limited and blind to actuality.
You're concerned for the future yet you're bashing religious thought and people that believe as if they're an infestation to our society. Hah! Hardly. Look in the mirror lately and analyses yourself? Quick to point the finger. Ahh, there it is.
You're giving your opinion on what you believe to be true.
Not quite. Im telling you what i can assume to be valid based on a large amount of convincing supporting evidence from trusted, valuable sources like scientific journals and the like. It should also be noted that my belief does not determine the validity of such things, the evidence does.
I am giving my opinion on what I believe is true.
Yes, what you are convinced is true, not what you have chosen to believe. The only difference is that you are far more easily convinced than i am and that what you believe in lacks a foundation of really any supporting evidence whatsoever.
Based on these things dont try to equate our situations because they most certainly arent equal.
Both of us will find out who is correct eventually ; either through death or through life.
Agreed. Ultimately that is the one PROOF of who will be correct, however, that does not mean that both have equal posibilities of being true, or that we can decide before then what is true beyond a reasonable doubt.
People have choices and you beg to differ, that's fine. I know I have a choice in what I believe. It's a shame you do not understand how much choice you have.
No, people dont have choices and YOU beg to differ. You THINK you have a choice when in reality you dont. And no, i dont see what choice i have because there isnt one.
NOBODY chooses what they believe. For instance, i CANT choose to believe in god because i have been convinced he 99.9999999% doesnt exist based on all the evidence ive analyzed, the same goes for santa, the easter bunny, ect. Now, i used to believe in all these things. When i stopped believing in them it wasnt because i CHOSE to stop. Why would i stop? Whats the upside to not believing in such things? Especially god which means i burn in hell? No, i didnt choose to, i was convinced by evidence that their nonexistence better reflected reality. The same goes for every belief anyone has including you.
If you CAN choose to believe things, RIGHT NOW believe in santa. make yourself believe just like you did when you were 5. OR imagine trying to choose not believing in god. You cant do either. You literally cant even if you wanted to. Because belief is not a switch you can flip on or off. there is no choices.
People do say and believe in "crazy" things, however, I do not.
To a rational atheist all believers appear crazy. YOU dont see these things because youre on the inside looking out and they all appear natural, all your beliefs and practices. But to outsiders looking in, even the most normal people to you look like wackjobs to us.
Nothing is crazy about me believing in God, it's as natural as my lungs needing the oxygen and as natural as my heart pumping automatically the blood and oxygen to my brain and the rest of my body.
Based on that, im not sure you understand what natural is. Saying belief in a supernatural god is natural. Its a big contradiction. The big bang and evolution, those are natural.
Humans are curious creatures and believe in many things.
Are all beliefs in anything "correct"? Probably not.
For once we agree.
Are all beliefs in God, "correct"? Who knows?
Okay its curious that when you say " all beliefs" in general are "probably not" true, but when you narrow it down to "beliefs in gods" suddenly its "who knows?". Its the same for both. "probably not". Are all beliefs in gods true? Definately not, they completely contradict and none probably exist at all. BUT it is also a who knows question because theyre untestable so we cant prove them. Thats why IM unconvinced based on all this evidence against them, AND why i cant understand that knowing that claims of god can be false that you still state that god exists.
Perhaps, the fact that there are many Gods means that due to cultural indifferences and language and societal boundaries, we're all speaking of the same deity. Crazy? Nah. Observant to actuality? Yes.
No. Whats observant to reality is the evidence that suggests that any and all gods probably dont exist at all. Not to mention many religions completely contradict eachother in so many ways that they CANT be the same at all. Stop trying to rationalize the irrational.
Atheists are hardly a belief system that I worry about
Atheism is the exact opposite of a belief system. If you dont know basic definitions then this argument is over.
Agnostics especially.
all atheists are agnostics because nobody can know and say for certain no god exists based on the fact that such a god is unprovable because he cant be scientifically tested.
Trust me, I have more atheist friends than I have religious friends. And trust me, they've got more logical and intelligent arguments than most atheists on this board.
And i doubt you listen to them very well.
I'm almost positive all you've ran into in your life are "crazy" religious people, and then you assume that there is no "intelligent conversation",
again, from the outside looking in all that christianity entails seems crazy. Extremists are INSANE. There is a spectrum. And i often assume that no intelligent conversation is possible when i have people who cant understand simple concepts that contradict their religions, or that dont know definitions of words, or make excuses for their beliefs, or dont have any clue about anything outside their belief sets like science.
because you have the mindset that the masses of the people that utilize religious in a negative way;
All religion on any level is harmfull. The higher end of the spectrum are extremists and corporations like TBN and the catholic church that allow horrible things to occur and whore money out of people. And on the lowest end is just the average believer. How is that harmfull? Its not harmfull if just one person has it. But BILLIONS have it and it collectively holds us back. All of the scientists we could have that dont persue it because theyre told its wrong or bad. We couldve cured cancer and AIDS by now probably. and all of the taxes that churches dont pay could be funding research and keeping the space programs running, or just helping the economy.
But no, these resources are wasted. Thats why i hate religion.
You completely disregard the good in spirituality and religious thought; which makes your mindset limited and blind to actuality.
I see no good coming from a bunch of wrong beliefs. They have zero benefits and only the placebo effect at most. For instance, we know unicorns dont exist. But if some guy yelled and pranced around yelling "unicorns answer my prayers!" that person isnt REALLY experiencing divine energy or whatever, theyre just crazy and might THINK they are.
Now if it makes him/religious people happy then thats great and im not saying its 100% evil, but the bad side of it far outweighs tthe good and as Matt Dilahunty once said:
"There is nothing that religion does for society or humanity that cannot be accomplished by purely secular means at this point in our evolution"
You're concerned for the future yet you're bashing religious thought and people that believe as if they're an infestation to our society.
Because from the outside its easy to see where religion holds us back which you are blind to.
Hah! Hardly. Look in the mirror lately and analyses yourself? Quick to point the finger. Ahh, there it is.
Another stupid question. God cannot show you when you will not believe. What you are asking for is to find yourself unable to escape Hell in order to believe God rules over you.
You have no real excuse for not believing God loves you and He is good. You are pushing Him away.....well, really, only pushing yourself away from Him. You aren't doing yourself any favor by fighting against God.
Atheism is a convenient truth accepted without thorough investigation. Not because God didn't make Himself clearly visible, but because ignoring God is convenient, and falling back on prove it is no effort!!
You think no effort to prove He doesn't exist is acceptable.
But if there is a God or isn't a God, shouldn't you have a diligent investigation before accepting either ideas?
Afterall, if God does exist your apathy and lack of effort won't excuse you. And I seriously doubt if there is a God, that you will accuse Him of not making Himself tangible enough, when you didn't bother even looking for something tangible.
Prove He doesnt exist for us and for yourself.
You should be absolutely sure through investigation. Because assuming is just a cop-out!
Atheism is a convenient truth accepted without thorough investigation.
Atheism is a lack of theism. That's it. Some people come to that conclusion without investigation, others come to it through a life of investigation. It is the height of arrogance to try to tell people what led to their religious beliefs.
Not because God didn't make Himself clearly visible, but because ignoring God is convenient, and falling back on prove it is no effort!!
You can't ignore something you don't believe in.
You think no effort to prove He doesn't exist is acceptable.
No effort is needed to prove he doesn't exist, if your atheism is premised on there being a lack of evidence to prove he does exist.
Isn't that the point of voting? Just to pop a point to a person you agree with? So what if my argument was a sentence or an essay, people agree ie: up votes. Just because theists often post unpointworthy arguments doesn't mean we're ruining the site.
There's nothing to prove. I'm not saying he doesn't exist for sure. Just that he almost surely doesn't exist but I don't know for sure.
I can, however, support this opinion for you:
The Big Bang
Evolutionary theory
Abiogenesis
Biblical errors, absurdities, and lack of proof
Lack of physical evidence for god
Ect ect ect.
All of these and more point to the conclusion that there probably isn't a god. I'm too lazy to write a 3 page essay on this (because there's that much evidence and more). I point you to a chapter in The God Delusion titled "why there almost undoubtedly is no God".
Science has proven the bible to be possibly correct in the assumption of Genesis and the creation of the heavens and the earth. In fact bible says 6,000 years old our earth is. But scientist say we are 4.5 billion as with the planets in our system. Titan cannot be 4.5 billion years old because of one simple reason. Methane still exists on the surface of titan which defies all known laws of physics and chemical properties. We all know that solar radiation turns methane into ethane when collided. Ethane being heavier will sink to the surface so after 4.5 billion years there should be no methane on Titan only ethane due to the solar wind. The Hugyens lander landed on Titan in 2005 and made a discovery that still has NASA stumped today. There is no ocean of ethane as predicted from known and recorded methane and solar bombardment. No ethane at all for a moon billions of years old. After only 50 million years the methane of Titan should have been depleted. This scientific data points to a much younger Titan of 5 to 8 thousand years old verses 4.5 billion. This is properly in line with biblical scripture from Genesis.
Science has proven the bible to be possibly correct in the assumption of Genesis and the creation of the heavens and the earth.
Things dont poof into existence, light cant come before the sun, heaven cant be scientifically tested for. Your statement is flat out wrong.
In fact bible says 6,000 years old our earth is
am i debating yoda?
But scientist say we are 4.5 billion as with the planets in our system. Titan cannot be 4.5 billion years old because of one simple reason. Methane still exists on the surface of titan which defies all known laws of physics and chemical properties.
Is Titan a planet? No. It's a moon. Moons form, it comparison to full planets, very fast. Also, scientists dont claim that every planet in our solar system is 4.5 billion years old. They all have different time spans of origin.
And methane does not defy the laws of physics and chemical properties. if it did it wouldnt exist. Hey, kinda like god. He defies those things too.
We all know that solar radiation turns methane into ethane when collided. Ethane being heavier will sink to the surface so after 4.5 billion years there should be no methane on Titan only ethane due to the solar wind. The Hugyens lander landed on Titan in 2005 and made a discovery that still has NASA stumped today. There is no ocean of ethane as predicted from known and recorded methane and solar bombardment. No ethane at all for a moon billions of years old. After only 50 million years the methane of Titan should have been depleted. This scientific data points to a much younger Titan of 5 to 8 thousand years old verses 4.5 billion. This is properly in line with biblical scripture from Genesis.
aaaaand.....? So we dont know something about the universe. Shocker!! We dont know alot of things, but you know what we do know? That there's an explaination for them. A NATURAL explaination for them. Just because we dont understand something does not automatically mean God did it, that is an argument from ignorance. Holes in science are filled with more science.
In my own curiosity i searched the internet for your supposed theory and found no such great NASA scandal, which shows that it was either solved and you werent informed, it isnt nearly as significant as youve made it out to be or were told it was, or it just isnt true.
As for being in line with genesis. Genesis ONLY talks about the creation of Earth. NOT Saturns moon of Titan. So really your evidence says nothing about biblical scripture. Its irrelivant. There is no great scandal with how Earth was created, we know it is 14 billion years old and we have found zero evidence to indicate that it isnt so, and certainly that it is somehow a puny fraction of that time at just 10,000 years old.
And even if it WAS 10,000 years old Genesis would still be wrong for countless other reasons.
This is true, however this is my opinion, not fact. The burden of proof lies on those who make statements of fact, like in a court case. I dont need to prove my opinion, however i have supported it for you with the evidence for my reasoning above
I never said i proved anything, i was just giving the evidence that lead me to my opinion. Thats all im giving, my opinion and nothing more. I cant say there is no god because i dont know that. Nobody knows that because hes untestable. Maybe we'll never know for certain but i can say that in my opinion and in the opinion of most atheist, that the posibility of a god existing is so infinately slim that we might as well assume there is in fact no god until we are persuaded otherwise by evidence. And why do we assume thing? Because of all the evidence supporting a natural godless universe, all the evidence against god's existence and the bibles legitimacy, and the astounding lack of evidence FOR both those things by theists or otherwise.
Okay we'll to clairify I am not any kind of theist or deist. Just 100% non believer. But I do hold satanic philosophy to heart and I talk all about this in my YouTube video. If you ever have any questions I'll be happy to answer here or in my YouTube vids
Fair enough so then you're not actually participating in this debate then... you're just a spectator? The question was 'does God exist'. What do you claim? Yes or no? If you're not going to commit to either then fair enough but that's what this debate is about.
I am not refusing anything. It is bigoted to expect Christians to prove their beliefs, but not other people. EVERYONE making a claim needs to come up with proof.
If someone makes a positive statement then yes the burden is on them to prove it e.g. "God exists". If someone a negative statement e.g. "God does not exist" then they do not have to prove it. The fact that there is no evidence that God does exist is sufficent enough to justify the logic "God does not exist". Its like for example someone saying " I don't believe in the Tessopglory monster of Antartica - he doesn't then have to prove that it doesn't exist - the fact that there is no evidence to suggest its existence is enough.
Do you understand anything of what I've just wrote?
On a debate that is about "does God exist' it is entirely reasonable to expect Christians to justify their belief. If you don't want do that then why post in this debate?
You've said that 5 time. Did you even read what I said or are you just copying and pasting what you've said already? I said christians in general. Thats what you were just talking about. 5 minutes ago. Do you recall?
To avesatanas. after 2000 some odd years with almost no one being literate, do you think there would be an exact translation? People have done alot of editing to the bible..one thing people dont know is that there are way more than 10 commandments. Thats an edit that humans made. I think that it's not God that people dont believe in, i think it's peoples' conceptions of him they do not agree with.
To avesatanas. after 2000 some odd years with almost no one being literate, do you think there would be an exact translation? People have done alot of editing to the bible..one thing people dont know is that there are way more than 10 commandments. Thats an edit that humans made. I think that it's not God that people dont believe in, i think it's peoples' conceptions of him they do not agree with.
1) 2000 years ago with nobody being literate, how did it get written by average joe disciples?
2) The fact that their isnt exact translations and misinfomation has been added countless times only slidifes the point that it is not a trustworthy source of information. It is the only source of information on God, his laws, Jesus, ect and its FLAWED. That's a big deal.
3) This being said, how can a god expect every human to take it seriously and believe in it when he's let it degrade so much that we dont even know what he might have meant?
4) "thats an edit humans made" it was written by humans to begin with thus making its authenticy debatable from the start.
5) Theres more than 10 commandments clearly yet none of them outlaw slavery or rape and many of them include death sentances. And ALL of them reflect the desires of MEN and not what an all powerfull god would decree.
6) No i sincerely reject the notion that any supreme being exists. I dont believe any interpretation of any god.
That doesnt even make grammatical sense you moron. Extra genders are a cop out of what?
And its cute how you just assume I believe all of these social justice things by default like a partisan hack.
I believe extra genders are bullshit along with feminism and islam is a cancer on the planet and needs to die in any and all forms.
But if by "left wing islam" you mean "peaceful" islam then yeah it clearly does exist. Muslims in the US have one of the lowest crime rates in the country per 1000. Because theyre mostly secularized. They are mostly muslim by culture not by religious belief. Like most christians and jews. They call themselves christians and jews but never go to church or read the bible and they just celebrate the major holidays.
And then theres ahmadis who are a very very small sect of islam who are 100% non violent pacifists. Kind of like Buddhists. But i would also argue their religion has had so much alteration from fundamentalist sunni islam that its pretty much its own religion apart from islam at this point.
Its called nuance. You can say that islam itself is a shit religion that breeds hate, violence, real sexism, ect. While also recognizing that there are people who neuter their own religion and cherry pick out the bad stuff and live like normal people.
You claimed you can't define things into existence. Liberals defined extra genders into existence
Why do you think i believe the same thing doesnt apply to them? Because youre a hack and a troll.
Its actually really funny the amount i actually agree with conservative trolls on this site but theyre just knee-jerk reactionary retards and total partisan hacks that they get 50 steps ahead of themselves
I hate islam way more than christianity. Difference is i run into 1 muslim for every 345654645 christians in my day to day life. Its the most pervasive religion in the country in terms of its influence on government and society. It immediately impacts me in real life. Islam just doesnt. But i recognize just objectively looking at christianity and islam in a vaccum of course islam is fucking monsterous compared to christianity.
Probably. probably not. No human can say absolutely one way or another. If the theists can, they aren't using faith they're using proof. If the atheists can they'd be proving something doesn't exist...how?
I'm on the no side because the stories concerning him are too bogus for them to be true.
He has revealed himself to you, you just chose to reject him, so even if he appeared to you in a flash of light and a voice from heaven, you still would not believe because you love your sin.
Do you feel guilt when you have done certain wrongs? It's because you sinned. What? Do you think that you feel guilt for no apparent reason? No, you don't. So, if your not a sinner, then why do you feel guilt, huh? Tell me that.
You feel guilt for a reason. Not because you didn't do anything. We feel guilt because we have sinned. Your argument is a pretty sad one. You don't feel guilt because "it's in your genes". Learn to debate, then come back.
You can read it now, and if you read my other argument (the long one) you'll see that you know God exists and prove it everytime you utter a knowledge claim.
It doesnt matter if He is sinning in your eyes, you are dust compared to him soo...
I mean that even if the claim in Romans 1 (that all men have seen God) were true at the time, it can't predict the future. Like if you said 10 years ago "There has never been a black U.S. president," that's about the past, not necessarily the future. God should fear my judgment.
If you read the passage you'll see that people knowledge of God is plain to them through creation. Creation still exists, therefore the statement still applies.
Hahaha, as if God should fear a dust mite shaking his fist at Him.
Did god created everything that is on Earth, and Sun and all planets and all stars and even all wast space and universe as such. Did he even created all atoms and all particles and all materia that exist? Did he created everything there is to be ever known to a man or even not man?
Our point is that you have no confirmable evidence of God, angels, or God creating anything. Saying that God created everything, so everything is evidence for God, is irrelevant. If i ask you for evidence for God, you'll say "Everything is evidence for God." Me: "Why?" You: "Because God created everything." Me: "How do you know that God exists?" You: "Because everything is evidence for God.". It's paradoxical.
Which facts are you referring to? And when you state "God" what do you mean by that? What is your definition of "doesn't reveal himself like he allegedly used to..."
You were obviously referring to God, don't give me that ...
I do believe in God yes.
God still talks to people, perhaps God is still speaking yet due to various reasons, its voice is not heard by some. Ever consider that?
Oh I'm sure in due time it will be raining frogs, parting of seas, mother nature will dance and whatever else is going to happen.
Once again, Gods presence is well known throughout people yet those whom are not open to it perhaps are blind and deaf to its presence.
Haha, so you're wondering why God didn't "present himself" when VHS - HD cameras were around? So we can put it on youtube titled "Look, it's God in the flesh". I have a strong feeling and belief the reasons for belief (faith) concerning humans is to have faith without having physically see it. Yes, to make it "tough" on us. Yes, I believe God has a sense of humor. And yes, I believe God is testing us and has been from the beginning.
I remember an atheist once was asked if there was one question they could ask God, their response was "Why have you hidden from us?" < - - - And this seems to be one of the main reasons atheists and non believers do not believe. Because precisely what you're speaking of; and that is God has not physically shown itself to mankind.
this seems to be one of the main reasons atheists and non believers do not believe. Because precisely what you're speaking of; and that is God has not physically shown itself to mankind.
Well god seems to have shown himself so many times in the past: to Noah, to Moses, to Maria obviously and so on. How come he never showed up himself in public in modern times? What about your god being an alien from another planet who happened to have sex with Maria. That would explain why he needed to physically impregnate Maria. Wouldn't it be enough to just create a baby Jesus just like he did with Adam & Eva? Why did he needed sexual intercourse in case of Jesus? By the way couldn't he just speak to people instead of going that long, strange 20-years long way to speak to people (I suppose it took at least some 18 - 20 years until Jesus was a grown up man ready to speak to people).
I assure you that is not the main reason why atheist don't believe in god. There is no main reason. Atheists don't believe there is no god; atheists know there is no god. They know because they are able to use their logic and reasoning and don't need fairy tales to fill in the gaps they can't answer yet.
If you claim atheist "know" there is not a God, you are wrong. You're just as fucked up as any other believer (not including myself), whom "knows" for certain that there is a God. Believe what you may, and I believe in what I may.
Further.
I believe there is a God, and I feel that I "know" to myself there is at least one, however, for me to say to others that what they believe in is "wrong", would be lying. Yet, you sit here and lie to the world saying you "know" there is not a God because of "logic". Fuck logic. This is not about human logic. Logic is a biproduct of something. Do you understand?
You're just as crazy as the extremists of both religion and science.
Talking about raining frogs, did you ever noticed that even though God did that, the king of egypt still didnt believe in Him, and neither would you. The Bible says there is ample evidence to condemn your unbelief and he will unoess he changes your heart.
If it rained frogs, I wouldn't immediately believe it was God, but I'd start looking into it. I haven't seen any signs from God. Why doesn't he send me an email?
He's not obligated to please you. He's given you evidence and you reject him to the point of denying he exists. Its a good thing he doesnt send you an email or appear to you, because unless he changed your heart, you would be under greater judgement and have even less of an excuse for rejecting him.
God or Jesus Christ? A. You don't even know that I believe in the bible or not. B. It seems like you're assuming way too much about the bible, in general. C. It's not "my bible", in fact I am not a believer in all of the bible, I believe the bible is not to be taken too literally, whilst some things are guidelines, rather than strict rules. But hey, had I said that back in the "bible times" I probably would have fit right in. D. God is not a fairytale, "fairytale" is just a word people like you (a non believer) enjoys saying as if you've got proof that no God is there. And don't give me the bullshit response "It's up to you to prove to me because you have assertions of something, therefore you must provide the evidence, I don't need to provide you with evidence of the absence of God." It works both ways; there have always been non-believers...that argument is worthless. We're both humans with curiosity.
What are you getting upset about? You told the other guy to give proof that God revealed himself and I'm just letting you know the bible you worship has a few verses that says he revealed himself. So there's really no argument. But of coarse most of the bible cant be proven.
What are you getting upset about? You told the other guy to give proof that God revealed himself and I'm just letting you know the bible you worship has a few verses that says he revealed himself. So there's really no argument. But of coarse most of the bible cant be proven. I was just helping out a fellow ally.
Vampires, unicorns, tooth fairy, these matter not. We're talking about God, not a philosophical debate about how to not prove something is there. You're the one clumping them altogether as if they're nearly the same thing. To you they're all fantasy, to me God is much more than a fantasy. To me, santa claus is a fantasy. To me, unicorn is a fantasy. There may be a few books and accounts for vampires, and perhaps one time one guy saw a unicorn, however, what does this have to do with me, amongst billions of people that believe in any God? Now we're talking apples and oranges, not fruit altogether.
Further, there are many more people that can agree that vampires, true vampires that can fly, that can drink blood to live, vampires that are 1,000 years old, do not exists. There are few people whom claim that unicorns exist.
And so on the premise, yes I am using numbers for this particular case to point on, no body gives a shit about vampires and unicorns and tooth fairies and santa claus, those are not important.
You, and others, are attempting to clump them all together and state "They're just the imagination of people, like people believing in santa claus, tooth fairy ect"... These things do not matter and are not valuable to the human being!
OBVIOUSLY, there holds more grounds and value when speaking about God. God in the sense of a "deity", or "creator", or whatever; GOD. God is far more valuable to a person than a fucking vampire!
And further, I can picture one saying "Well, just because it's valuable does not mean it exists" or "Just because billions of people believe it to be true, does not mean it exists" and so and so and so.
I agree. On the mere fact that people have MANY different Gods and the human imagination is almost infinite and is a wonderful thing. Who can prove that God is not real? Fuck the vampires, santa claus, and the others. Again, they hold little to no value.
However, to me and to many others in whatever God they believe in, God is real, and is tangible and is logical, and is rational. Who are you to say otherwise?
Vampires, unicorns, tooth fairy, these matter not. We're talking about God, not a philosophical debate about how to not prove something is there. You're the one clumping them altogether as if they're nearly the same thing.
The vampire example is just there to show, that just because something cannot be disproved, it doesn't mean it is reasonable to believe it.
Also you said "God is not a fairytale, "fairytale" is just a word people like you (a non believer) enjoys saying as if you've got proof that no God is there."
Vampires, fairies and leprechauns are all fairy tales, and you cannot disprove them.
Also they are some similarities. Both are supernatural and both have poor or non existent evidence, yet people still believed in them.
To you they're all fantasy, to me God is much more than a fantasy. To me, santa claus is a fantasy. To me, unicorn is a fantasy.
Why do you consider Unicorns and vampires are a fantasy?
There may be a few books and accounts for vampires, and perhaps one time one guy saw a unicorn, however, what does this have to do with me, amongst billions of people that believe in any God? Now we're talking apples and oranges, not fruit altogether.
Many cultures throughout history believed in vampires, it isn't just a few books. Just like Gods, Vampires, witches and many different supernatural beings have been part of our history. Millions possible billions of people in history have believed in witches and vampires, so if numbers of people who believed in it matters, then these should also be considered.
Further, there are many more people that can agree that vampires, true vampires that can fly, that can drink blood to live, vampires that are 1,000 years old, do not exists. There are few people whom claim that unicorns exist.
And so on the premise, yes I am using numbers for this particular case to point on, no body gives a shit about vampires and unicorns and tooth fairies and santa claus, those are not important.
It doesn't matter if people care about Vampires, Unicorns and so on. The point is you say they don't exist and you cannot prove that they don't. Yet you say that God exists and then say I can't prove he doesn't. Just because something cannot be disproved, it doesn't mean it is reasonable to believe it. If it did, then vampires, fairies, witches and unicorns are all reasonable beliefs.
You, and others, are attempting to clump them all together and state "They're just the imagination of people, like people believing in santa claus, tooth fairy ect"... These things do not matter and are not valuable to the human being!
Why does it matter if they are valuable to humans? If they are in the imagination of people, it doesn't really matter if they are important or not.
OBVIOUSLY, there holds more grounds and value when speaking about God. God in the sense of a "deity", or "creator", or whatever; GOD. God is far more valuable to a person than a fucking vampire!
It may be more valuable, I agree it is a more important matter whether God exists. However it doesn't matter if it is more valuable, when trying to determine whether either one is true or not, you should not have one rule for one and another rule for the other. Which you seem to be doing when it comes to not being able to disprove something.
And further, I can picture one saying "Well, just because it's valuable does not mean it exists" or "Just because billions of people believe it to be true, does not mean it exists" and so and so and so.
I agree.
I am glad you agree with this.
On the mere fact that people have MANY different Gods and the human imagination is almost infinite and is a wonderful thing. Who can prove that God is not real? Fuck the vampires, santa claus, and the others. Again, they hold little to no value.
The whole point of the Vampire example was that just because you cannot disprove something, does not make it reasonable to believe it.
You say Who can prove that God is not real? , I flip it and say who can prove vampires or witches are not real?. it matters not if one is more valuable than the other, what matters is you are being inconsistent.
However, to me and to many others in whatever God they believe in, God is real, and is tangible and is logical, and is rational. Who are you to say otherwise?
To people in history Zeus, vampires and witches were all real. That doesn't matter, what matters is what evidence is there for those beliefs. The evidence for all of them is poor to non existent, just like the God of the bible.
Do you have any proof/evidence there is next life? If there is a next life does it mean you know how it will look like? Does it also means there is a life before this one? Do you remember it?
Vampires, Satan, Demons, Evil, and Darkness do exist.
In the garden after the fall in the garden, God cursed the serpent saying "On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life."
To Eve He cursed childbirth etc...
And to Adam He said "18 Both thorns and thistles shall grow for you And you will
eat the plants of the field 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken, For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”
So Satan the God of this world feeds off of the dust of the cursed ground that
Adam wrestles with and is enslaved to, made, God actually says "You are dust" and returning back to when he dies.
Most people have a NATURAL fascination for the dark realm is appealing of the cursed flesh dark relmn. Speaking of tangible, Satan is very tangible. He
is the God of this world. There is no objection to things that are of natural to the cursed dust.
In many ways the evil in the supernatural and more visible than God, Angels, Goodness, and Light.
The reason there is little the God of this world appeals to the darkness in our nature there is no objection in the natural mind that is fixed on living according to the nature of man after the fall and in subjection to the God of this world.
It should be revealing that awareness of the supernatural is statistically more visible and favorable the supernatural related to the God of this world in general. And Many have experienced something at least once if not more some supernatural experiences, little signs, or premonitions, or have seen Orbs, or some crazy turn of events. Sometimes even seeing or feeling the presence of evil.
Its funny though to think these are often the same people who deny God exists. But they know or feel the spiritual world around them.
Shouldn't your spiritual mind question why the God of this world, even in a terrifying form has less of an objection than the Spirit of God.
If I asked an atheist or agnostics , "if I could prove right in front of them that God and Demons exist. And if I could do that, which would you choose, God
or Demons? Aside from some insincere defensive answers, most people would say "they wouldn't pick the demons" But they can't even bring themselves to say they'd pick God.
You should understand it's spiritual, and people are held captive to Satan as part of the curse on Satan and on man. Most people at one time or another have had some brush against the darkness of the supernatural, and if that exist you should see the contrast. Even if it's hazy. Yet many choose the familiarity of their captors, without resisting long enough to investigate freedom in God to at least understand your choices. People become dependent on their captors. Isn't that oddly human nature.
So the question is what would you do, what would your response to God be if
I could prove God exists? Then what? Thoughts like that may be met with a 1st immediate thought, to draw away, because you don't really want to know if He is there let alone meet Him.
Even if the knowledge of God is written in your conscience and your free will chooses to dull any questions about God within your conscience and you choose to "believe" that God doesn't exist, it's based on assumption not convinced. So unless you investigated it is not a belief. Its a view but not a, belief. Because beliefs are convinced, not accepting or assuming, but convinced
the laws of thermodynamics do support the existence of a powerful eternal creator
Except they do not on the premise that the second law of thermodynamics, the Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy, state that energy cannot be created or destroyed; two things God does quite often.
True true but if this is an eternal being he exists outside of the realm of space and time and thus can control everything on the inside of this realm. So by an intelligent designers power he could break that law and that law could apply to everything inside the realm. One could ask if that law was applied then who created or what created all of this.
True true but if this is an eternal being he exists outside of the realm of space and time and thus can control everything on the inside of this realm.
There is nothing that suggests that an external entity could hold any influence on our spacetime. But let's, for the sake of further argument, suspend the disbelief.
So by an intelligent designers power he could break that law and that law could apply to everything inside the realm.
Well, no, because that entity would have to have it's own spacetime to be able to choicefully interject at select intervals of our own spacetime, and the total entropy of the two systems, even through the "addition of matter" into our own, would still have to be contained. Which is to say that in order for there to be a God, God would need to be a cognitive spacetime bubble that loses energy to our own spacetime, making God an ever-retreating ever-depreciating entity, contrary to the claimed omnipotence He has.
One could ask if that law was applied then who created or what created all of this.
Again you bring it back to who, when who implies not only an intent, but a concept of real things or people or entities beyond reality, which is a paradox. In order for it to exist, it has to be within existence.
Well, no, because that entity would have to have it's own spacetime to be able to choicefully interject at select intervals of our own spacetime, and the total entropy of the two systems, even through the "addition of matter" into our own, would still have to be contained. Which is to say that in order for there to be a God, God would need to be a cognitive spacetime bubble that loses energy to our own spacetime, making God an ever-retreating ever-depreciating entity, contrary to the claimed omnipotence He has.
If a being has its own spacetime it cannot be a god because it is limited. Thus it cannot have its own bubble either because it would be limited. This means that the beong must ne eternal and not affected by the laws of science and it must exist in its own realm. Nothing can create an eternal being. This being must have abilities that defy our knowledge. It doesnt have to be limited by our scientific laws. Science has not explained everything and only explains the things in our universe.
Again you bring it back to who, when who implies not only an intent, but a concept of real things or people or entities beyond reality, which is a paradox. In order for it to exist, it has to be within existence.
Not quite. If it exists outside of our spacetime then how can one see or touch it? If this being is eternal then it must be omnipotent and it must be able to exist outside of it. Can you elaborate on this "paradox"?
It sounds far too fantastic to be true, to be honest. Are you sure you're backing up a realistic and possible idea, or just writing science fiction about some god that lives beyond time and space.
It is just simple logic. The same thing he wrote. My explanation explained the possible existence for am eternal being that cannot be limited. Nobody has an explanation yet.
If a being has its own spacetime it cannot be a god because it is limited. Thus it cannot have its own bubble either because it would be limited.
Right where I'm getting to! So we cannot categorize God as a product of Existence, rather it is either the product or the entirety of Non-existence.
This means that the beong must ne eternal and not affected by the laws of science and it must exist in its own realm. Nothing can create an eternal being. This being must have abilities that defy our knowledge. It doesnt have to be limited by our scientific laws. Science has not explained everything and only explains the things in our universe.
Soooo God is a quark?
Not quite. If it exists outside of our spacetime then how can one see or touch it?
My point exactly.
If this being is eternal then it must be omnipotent and it must be able to exist outside of it.
Right, but is being eternal even a real thing? There is nothing that'd lead me to believe so.
Can you elaborate on this "paradox"?
The paradox is: That which does not exist cannot have a name, shape, form, or purpose, because names, shapes, forms, and purposes are things that exist; and existence and non-existence are mutually exclusive, by definition.
I dont understand your first statement. This just means that a being exists outside of spacetime. Also I am not arguing for God but an intelligent designer. Being eternal? We dont know yet. I highly doubt we will break through our universal barrier. The paradox you stated stipl doesnt make an absolute judgement that makes an eternal being impossible.
No. That means the possibility for an intelligent designer is possible. The being would be eternal. I never said that it would prove the existense to a 100% sure fire extent. This being would exist outside of our spacetime because it cannot be limited and it must be able to create matter. Either it can be conscious or just be some incredibly powerful atoms bosons or something.
Thats the entire point of debating this topic. Nobody has proven or disproven the existence of an eternal being. Nobody has. That is why you debate the topic. Because you havent even provided any sort of evidence. You go straight to vulgarity.
My idea is intelligent design. Prove me wrong. You havent done that yet. You aren't debating. You are just saying I am wrong without providing evidence.
If the idea of god never existed, we would all be atheists, though the label would never exist. The one who "doesn't buy it" doesn't have to prove anything, to hold back belief and remain unconvinced, requires no evidence at all. Only an atheist can truly lack belief and be the one remaining truly unconvinced, only an atheist can make absolutely no assertion by being an atheist. The prefix A- means not or without, and the word theist means a belief in god, so atheism means "not or without a belief in god" not an assertion god doesn't exist. Though atheism can be an assertion most atheists are merely the skeptics. A theist can never truly have a lack of belief like an atheist can without it contradicting being a theist, as the definition for a theist is one whom believes in god. To believe in god that is an assertion within the mind. So if anyone wanted to prove that god doesn't exist as a fact or to even justify believing god doesn't exist, they'd have to disprove god, however it's double edged sword, for to believe god does exist or exist as a fact, one has to show some evidence for god.
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Any belief in god is unreasonable as there lacks a reason, unless one is provided, which one never has, one that I found logical anyways. However no reason is required to not believe in god in the first place. I would say that is quite easy to argue god being possible especially when one brings up another realm of reality that changes the rules of the playing field, as what is logical for our universe doesn't apply anymore. However, possible does not equal probable or actual. I admit that god is possible, as much as unicorns are possible, of course I could easily argue that unicorns are possible in another realm where our science and knowledge doesn't apply.
That is my point. I have been arguing the possibility of an intelligent designer. Why dispute if you repeated what I said and qualified the possbility?
I know. But it still leaves the window open. It doesnt have to be the christian god it doesnt have to be any religious god. It just can be an intelligent designer and so far I havent heard anyone disprove nor prove it.
I know. I believe in an intelligent designer until it is fully disproven. I am just displeased to see that peoppe favor an effect and claim it to disprove the existence of an eternal being by 100%.
Matter cannot be created or destroyed and it simply cannot bring itself into existence thus something must create it and ot must not be limited by the laws of physics inside the spacetime because that implies that it exists in a spacetime and is limited by time so an eternal being must create it if it cannot be created or destroyed.
You're forgetting another possibility; that matter may have always existed. I don't think you'll find a reputable scientist on the planet that will tell you the universe came from nothing. It was just in a different form than it is now.
Give this some thought. The elements that the universe is made of are very simple. A spec of dust is far more complicated than these elements. So which is more likely to have always existed, a spec of dust or an all powerful being capable of creating an entire universe?
How did it bring itsepf into existence though? How does something that has an end have an eternal life span? Also if matter cannot be created or destroyed something must create it. It cant just spawn on its own.
You seemed to have missed my argument. It didn't bring itself into existence, it has always existed. If you think it's possible for an all-powerful being to have always existed, why can't something as simple as the basic elements always exist instead?
How does something that has an end have an eternal life span?
Matter doesn't have an end. As you said, "matter can't be created or destroyed", therefore it is eternal. It just changes forms. Everything in the universe from stars, to planets, to humans is made up of the same basic elements, so matter takes many forms. Before the big bang that matter was just in a different form. We have no way of knowing for sure what form it was in or what triggered it to change forms since we don't have a time machine to travel back to when it happened. It may be a question we never find an answer to.
The point I'm trying to make is that if something as complex as an all-powerful being can be eternal, then surely something as simple as the basic elements can be eternal, and that is more likely than a god because it is much simpler. Occam's Razor.
The universe is reaching its end. It will either freeze, pull itself apart into oblivion, or crunch back together and start again. Now in astronomy you theory is possible but something must have started it. Thats the point of debating. With your theory the fun of debating ends and there is nothing left to discuss. With mine we can go all day long. Both are possible.
Sure, I'm not saying that your theory isn't plausible, I'm just saying that it is less likely because it is significantly more complex and defies every known law of science.
Ehh I wouldnt say less likely because we cant measure its probability since science, so far, cannot even peer into it. We have discovered things that make zero sense. We may never know. Cant really put a probability stat on it. The theory of lots of things are conplex and become easy when they can be explained. So it a true sense it is just lik the theories produced back then during Platos time or the time of colonial America.
We can't assign precise probability, but we can weigh the evidence for each hypothesis to see which one is more probable.
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HYPOTHESIS 1: The matter that our universe is made of is eternal and just changes forms.
Supporting Evidence:
1) We have observed matter.
2) We have observed matter change into many different forms.
3) The law of conservation of matter states that matter can't be created or destroyed. Therefore, it is eternal.
Potential Problems:
I can't think of any off the top of my head. Can you think of any?
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HYPOTHESIS 2: A powerful and eternal god created the universe.
Supporting Evidence:
1) God appeared on toast ;)
I honestly can't think of anything that isn't easily refuted, so I'll let you come up with the supporting evidence.
Potential Problems:
1) God would have to be a conscious being. We have never observed consciousness from anything that doesn't have a brain. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but it does seem unlikely.
2) It defies the law of conservation of matter and many other laws of science.
3) It seems unlikely that something that powerful and intelligent could just exist.
4) There is evidence for the Big Bang, such as cosmic microwave background radiation. If the universe was created by an intelligent designer it seems unlikely it would have been done via a chaotic event like the big bang which resulted in a highly unstable and destructive universe where entire galaxies collide, stars explode, and black holes suck up everything in their path.
Your number three still leaves the question as to what created those initial things? They cannot just always exist. They must have been created by something. Also I looked at your bottom problems. Why can an intelligent designer not make the big bang? Why not? Why cant it be conscious? The thing is that just because you didnt or currently dont see it doesnt mean it is there or isnt happening. Those laws are limited to what we can observe in our own space time which I am sure will be our limit for awhile. All I am seeing is "unlikely" because we havent seen it or dont really have a reason to even bother looking for it. If matter cannot be created or destroyed then I think that something must put it there. I dont think we even have the capability to fathom it.
Your number three still leaves the question as to what created those initial things? They cannot just always exist.
Then god can't either. Why can something as complex as a god always exist, but something as simple as the basic elements not always exist?
They must have been created by something.
Then that something that created them must have also been created, and that something had to be created by something, and so on.
Why can an intelligent designer not make the big bang?
I didn't say it couldn't. I'm saying it would be a very poor way of designing something. The chaos of the universe indicates a lack of design.
Why cant it be conscious?
Again, I didn't say it couldn't, I said it was unlikely because it defies everything we know about consciousness.
The thing is that just because you didnt or currently dont see it doesnt mean it is there or isnt happening.
I agree, but until there is some kind of reason to believe something is there or is happening, there is no good reason to do so. It's pure conjecture. Just because I currently don't see fairies doesn't mean they don't exist, but until some evidence is found to support their existence I see no reason to believe in them.
If matter cannot be created or destroyed then I think that something must put it there.
That's a contradiction. I've changed the last few words of what you said to make it stand out. "If matter cannot be created or destroyed then I think that something must create it."
Like I said above, why can something as complex as a god always exist, but something as simple as the basic elements not always exist?
Like I said. This being can exist outside of our spacetime and it is not applicable to our laws. You cant create an eternal being. Thats impossible but you say my theory contradicts. Tell me if matter cannot be created or destroyed but you are talking about the big bang that is a contradiction. The big bang had a beggining so how would things be there before the big bang? Also you cant have infinite big bangs. That would be an overload of heat. So by your logic something as silly as an eternal being cannot be proven or disproven by science but with science I can lean the argument in my favor by simply stating that:
1) If we have evidence of a big bang then it had a beggining and thus cannot be eternal and also makes you contradict your entire theory.
2) This being cannot be limited by our laws. It would be limited by time in that sense and thus cannot be an eternal being. You must be Alpha and Omega.
3) This isnt chaos. This is just stuff that isnt normal for us. Stars explode. Black holes form. Dark matter is present. Anti matter could exist. I mean it isnt chaos. These things happen all over the universe on a daily basis.
3) True, there is absolutely no reason to believe in such a being. Doesnt mean people vant explore it and believe it is there.
4) I cannot contradict myself if my being is not limited by our spacetime and has the ability to create these things. If the being is not limited by our laws or spacetime then it could practically exist and we have no ways of proving it or disproving it.
5) This is a continuation on the chaos bit. This universe is extremely fine tuned and some things still boggle scientists like stars that burn at room temperature or stars the size of jupiter or the theoretical things like nemesis and nibiru. They are all possible. Nibiru and nemesis have been shown to not exist but scientists agree that it is 100% possible for them to exist. This is a fine tuned universe. The way things occur is mind blowing.
This being can exist outside of our spacetime and it is not applicable to our laws.
If god is not bound by time, then that would mean everything that ever happened in the past, present, and future happens instantaneously for him. Without time there is no sequence of events. Without a sequence of events everything comes to a grinding halt. When did Satan get thrown out of heaven? Was it before or after he rebelled? The answer is neither because there is no sequence of events, so it couldn't even happen. The concept of a timeless existence is nonsensical. A timeless being can't interact with anything in time because everything is simultaneous to him. He would have to step into time to interact with a specific moment in time and then step back out of time. The concept is mind bogling the more you think about it.
Has time always existed? If not, that would mean there was timelessness before time existed, but that's impossible because without time there is no before.
Try to picture how god would see the universe. Every moment that has ever happened and will happen would be frozen and overlapping because without time there is no sequence of events. He wouldn't even be able to see me because all the people, plants, animals, and mountains that have ever existed where I am sitting right now would be overlapping me.
Nothing can happen without time.
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If we have evidence of a big bang then it had a beggining and thus cannot be eternal and also makes you contradict your entire theory.
The big bang didn't create matter. It was just a tranformation of existing matter.
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This isnt chaos. This is just stuff that isnt normal for us. Stars explode. Black holes form. Dark matter is present. Anti matter could exist. I mean it isnt chaos. These things happen all over the universe on a daily basis.
Just because it happens often doesn't mean it's not chaotic. Chaos has nothing to do with the frequency of events.
Chaos:
1. A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
2. A disorderly mass; a jumble:
The universe is very disordered, less so than it used to be because things are moving farther away from each other so there are less collisions, but it is still filled with disorderly events like the ones I described.
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True, there is absolutely no reason to believe in such a being. Doesnt mean people cant explore it and believe it is there.
Sure, I see no reason people shouldn't explore it, but I don't see any reason to believe it until there is some kind of evidence to support it.
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This universe is extremely fine tuned and some things still boggle scientists like stars that burn at room temperature or stars the size of jupiter or the theoretical things like nemesis and nibiru. They are all possible. Nibiru and nemesis have been shown to not exist but scientists agree that it is 100% possible for them to exist.
It's also 100% possible that there are aliens controlling our thoughts, but just because something is possible doesn't mean it should be taken seriously.
I don't see how any of those things you pointed out are examples of fine tuning.
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This is a fine tuned universe. The way things occur is mind blowing.
The universe is fascinating, but I don't think fine-tuned is an accurate description. Fine-tuning implies there is a goal or purpose in mind and fine-tuning is necessary to achieve that goal. What goal or purpose would there be for a universe that is 99.999999999999% uninhabitable.
I am not talking about God. I am talking about an intelligent designer. Not God. So I cant really answer your first paragraph because I am not talking about God. Also if the big bang is not the beginning what is? Also you say nothing can happen without time but if you are eternal time is nothing. Time isn't affecting you. I am aware that the frequency of events doesn't mean it isn't chaotic but this isn't chaos. These things are just deadly and catastrophic to us. On a universal scale things will appear to be different. Order in the universe? How is it not ordered? What is order in the universe? A straight line of stars? Multiple earths? Our planet got lucky and had the perfect distance from a star and the perfect elements to support life which happened from these "chaotic" events. Chaos is only in the human mind. Fine tuning? Are you confused on fine tuning? Tell me with earth and its ability to support life is that not fine tuned? Are stars not fine tuned? Are planets not fine tuned? Are black holes not fine tuned? How do you declare something not fine tuned yet this fine tuned universe made life possible on earth? Simply because you cannot find a reason for its existence or cant find anything to support it doesn't mean that people cant still believe in it. Also my example were examples of the things that boggle scientists which should be easy to identify by my diction amid syntax. Fine tuning doesn't imply what you are stating. It doesn't have to have a goal. It is simply fine tuned. Our placement from the sun and our abundance of elements can be seen as fine tuned. Just because it isn't livable doesn't mean it is not fine tuned. I dint think you are seeing this on a large universal scale.
I am not talking about God. I am talking about an intelligent designer. Not God. So I cant really answer your first paragraph because I am not talking about God.
This debate is titled "Does God exist" so I assumed that is who we were talking about. It really doesn't matter what we call the intelligent designer, I just used God because that's what most people call it.
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Also if the big bang is not the beginning what is?
There may not be a beginning. That's the point I've been trying to make. I think maybe all of the matter that our universe is made of has always existed in some form. We have no way of knowing for sure, but I find it more believable that basic matter can always exist verses an incredibly intelligent and powerful being always existing.
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Also you say nothing can happen without time but if you are eternal time is nothing. Time isn't affecting you.
If time isn't affecting you, then you are frozen. Without time there can be no sequence of events, nothing can change. Without time I can't type this message because pressing each key on my keyboard is a sequence of events. An intelligent designer that is not in time wouldn't be able to design anything because the act of designing and creating is a sequence of events, and therefore dependent on time.
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I am aware that the frequency of events doesn't mean it isn't chaotic but this isn't chaos. These things are just deadly and catastrophic to us.
Black holes are catastrophic to anything that crosses their path. Supernovas are catastrophic for all nearby planets. Galaxies colliding are catastrophic for everything in them. The universe is filled with destruction. Our sun will eventually go supernova and kill every living thing on the planet, but before that happens a rogue asteroid will most likely kill us.
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Order in the universe? How is it not ordered? What is order in the universe?
Things not colliding with each other and being smashed into a million piece or being sucked into black holes would be a start.
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Our planet got lucky and had the perfect distance from a star and the perfect elements to support life which happened from these "chaotic" events. Chaos is only in the human mind.
There are approximately 7 sextillion stars in the observable universe, that's 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Scientists estimate that there are around 100 billion galaxies in the universe with 100 billion planets in each one. So that's 100 billion times 100 billion, 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. The chances of some of those planets having the right conditions to support some form of life are not nearly as improbable as they may seem. Scientists have already discovered many planets in our galaxy that are the right distance from a sun, and they think those planets may be able to support life.
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Tell me with earth and its ability to support life is that not fine tuned?
That's not fine tuning, that just what happens when you have such a massive number of planets. The chances of some of them being able to support life are not that unlikely, especially when you consider that the first form of life was most likely a microscopic single-celled organism. Think of how much microscopic surface area there is on 100 billion billion planets and just how many different conditions exist on all those planets.
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Are stars not fine tuned? Are planets not fine tuned? Are black holes not fine tuned?
I don't see how any of those things are fine-tuned. All of those things are just hunks of various matter that have coalesced due to gravity. If they were all the same then it would appear that they were fined-tuned, but all of those things vary greatly, just as you would expect if they were created from a random event. There are lots of different types of stars with different chemical compositions. The makeup of planets varies greatly. Just think about all the different types of planets just in our solar system. This multitude of variations points to randomness, not fine-tuning.
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Simply because you cannot find a reason for its existence or cant find anything to support it doesn't mean that people cant still believe in it.
I never said they can't. I'm just saying that I personally see no reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence. If other people want to do so, that it their choice.
Fine tuning doesn't imply what you are stating. It doesn't have to have a goal. It is simply fine tuned.
Fine-tune
1. "To adjust precisely so as to bring to the highest level of performance or effectiveness."
2. "To improve through minor alteration or revision."
In definition 1 the goal is to bring something "to the highest level of performance or effectiveness." In order to gauge whether it is performing correctly or effectively you need to know it's purpose.
In definition 2 the act of improving something means you have a goal of making it better than it currently is because it is not serving its purpose as effectively as it should.
Matter came from the big bang. How in the world does it exist if an infinite lineage of big bangs cannot happen? You said there is proof of the big bang so where does your situation fit? Also the sun cannot supernova and it is sort of a petpeeve when people say that. It will turn into a red giant and exahale all its gas and become a white dwarf. It doesnt have enough msss to supernova. Also by your definition of perfect gravity would not be possible. Object with high mass would have no pull on others. A black hole forms from a collapsed star due to its gravity. A supernova is the start of new life for other stars. Earths gravity pulls those meteors. So what are you trying to say? The universe is fine tuned dispite your definition. Your definition of perfection would not support life. Everything occurs by a chain of random events and a smidge of luck. We are lucky to still be alive. We are lucky oxygen and hydrogen elements were brought to this planet by meteors colliding with earth which you claim to be catastrophic. Those events brought life. If time isnt affecting you you are frozen? Who said that? If time isnt affecting you then you are eternal. You arent bound by space or time and we cannot fathom it because we are bound. Our minds are limited. I already know of other planets and there possibility but they have to be lucky enough to have elements that support life. Other factors play in besides distance. Also fine tuning is on a universal basis. Not a "support life" basis. You are only seeing this from a human perspective. Take this on a grand scale. We are lucky. I know the debate is called "Does God exist?" but the side is labeled "deism".
As I already said before multiple times, the big bang didn't create matter, the matter already existed in some other form. The big bang just spread it around.
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How in the world does it exist if an infinite lineage of big bangs cannot happen?
I never said anything about an infinite lineage of big bangs. We have no way of knowing whether there have been other big bangs or what existed before the big bang. It's one of those mysteries we may never know the answer to.
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Also the sun cannot supernova and it is sort of a petpeeve when people say that. It will turn into a red giant and exahale all its gas and become a white dwarf. It doesnt have enough msss to supernova.
My bad. Either way, it will wipe out all life on earth.
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The universe is fine tuned dispite your definition.
Fine tuned for what? The reason I included those definitions was to show that fine tuning requires a goal or purpose.
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Your definition of perfection would not support life.
If I had the power to create a universe I could easily come up with a better universe that could support life. For starters I wouldn't create the whole thing with a big bang, I would put everything neatly in place where it is in perfect harmony and not smashing into each other. I would make planets stable so they aren't plagued with natural disasters. I would make most plants edible, etc.
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Everything occurs by a chain of >>>random<<< events and a smidge of luck. We are lucky to still be alive. We are lucky oxygen and hydrogen elements were brought to this planet by meteors colliding with earth which you claim to be catastrophic. Those events brought life.
You just made my point. The universe is not fine-tuned, it is "random" and we are here by "luck", not fine-tuning by some intelligent designer. If it was fine-tuned our planet wouldn't be plagued with natural disasters. If it's fine-tuned then why are 99% of all species that have ever lived on this planet extinct? Whoever is doing the fine-tuning needs to be fired because he is doing a lousy job.
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If time isnt affecting you you are frozen? Who said that?
I said it. Remember, without time there is no sequence of events. Pick any series of actions, like eating a bowl of cereal, and try to imagine how you would do it without a sequence of events? If an intelligent designer does anything at all it would requires a sequence of events. If he/she wants to move a planet 100 yards, the first event would be coming up with the idea to move the planet. The next events would be moving the planet inch by inch until it reaches it's destination. The next event would be stopping the planet. No time, no sequence of events, nothing happens, it's frozen.
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I know the debate is called "Does God exist?" but the side is labeled "deism".
I guess I'm blind because I don't see the word "deism" anywhere on this page.
Oops this says thiesm. Wow I thought it said deism this whole time. Wow I feel stupid. I still like debating against my beliefs so I shall continue to dabate with you to learn more logic from an athiest. Now how can matter eternally exist if the big bang spreads it around and it has an end? If not an infinite lineage of big bangs yet one occured how does matter eternally exist? Dont worry lots of people just think it will supernova. I just hear it all too often. Who knows? Maybe there is a purpose. We dont know yet. Highly doubt we will ever know. Also the way you describe a better universe is odd. If things didnt collide with each other then earth wouldnt exist. Earth was made by collisions. Neatly in place in perfect harmony? How so? Woupd you bend the laws of physics and all the astronomical properties that you know of now? The universe you are imagining is odd. Our universe is currently where it is now by a super massive black hole. With all the fluff in your perfect universe life would not exist. Random events from a fine tuned universe. I thought this was implied already. Why are we plagued by natural disasters? Because that is how things work in the universe. Just because humans cant live doesnt mean that the universe is not fine tuned. Everything that goes on is simply amazing and mind blowing. From the biggest stars to stars that burn at 80 degrees farhenhiet to pulsars (which are just neutron stars) to the creation of life. How can you be affected by time if you started the clock? Why would you be frozen? I understand the sequence of events but even the bible had a semi right idea (God said 1 day to him is of a thousand years to man) and if you are not affected by time you are not bound by any of its effects. You are eternal. You can still do what ever. In order to be eternal time cannot affect you.
Now how can matter eternally exist if the big bang spreads it around and it has an end?
What makes you think it has an end? Just because it spreads around and eventually drifts off into space doesn't mean it ends. It may just continue to drift forever but it will still exist, or maybe some strange event that we don't have any understanding of yet will cause all the dark energy in the universe to reverse and instead of pushing everything apart it will pull it all back together again. We may never know the answer.
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If not an infinite lineage of big bangs yet one occured how does matter eternally exist?
There is no way to know what form the matter took previous to the big bang. I could have been something we can't even begin to imagine. The big bang may have been a one time event that was triggered by some strange event in an unknown dimension. It's all a big mystery, and will most likely stay that way. All I know is that if something had to exist eternally I think it's far more likely that something simple like matter did than a powerful intelligent being.
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Who knows? Maybe there is a purpose.
Maybe. I guess we'll just have to wait and wonder.
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Also the way you describe a better universe is odd. If things didnt collide with each other then earth wouldnt exist. Earth was made by collisions.
The fact that earth was made by collisions is what leads me to believe that it is not intelligently designed. It seems like a strange and incredibly inefficient way to create something. If I were creating a universe I would just make Earth appear fully intact.
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Neatly in place in perfect harmony? How so? Would you bend the laws of physics and all the astronomical properties that you know of now?
Sure, why not. If I have the power to create a universe I imagine I could do just about anything I wanted.
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How can you be affected by time if you started the clock?
If the clock was started, that means there was a time before the clock was started. There can be no before without time already existing.
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Why would you be frozen?
Imagine you want to watch a movie the way an omniscient being who is outside of time would see it. It would be like if you took every single frame from the movie, overlapped them all into one image, and displayed that one image on the screen. The movie wouldn't move at all because without time there is no sequence of events. Everything would appear frozen, including yourself because if you are not in time you can't eat your popcorn because that is a sequence of events.
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I understand the sequence of events but even the bible had a semi right idea (God said 1 day to him is of a thousand years to man) and if you are not affected by time you are not bound by any of its effects.
But the effects of time are what allows us to function. If you discard time you discard everything that requires a sequence of events, which is pretty much everything. The act of god creating the universe in 7 days or 7000 years still requires time, even if it's on a different scale. Any and all actions are dependent on time.
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You are eternal. You can still do what ever. In order to be eternal time cannot affect you.
Being eternal doesn't mean time doesn't affect you, it just means you've been around forever, which I admit is a hard concept to grasp and gives me a headache just thinking about it. The concept of eternity is mind boggling.
What makes me think that it has an end? Well we have the big rip theory and the big crunch theory. We have the theory where things continue but if all scientific laws are still present everything freezes. Also when you say pull it back together again that is the infinite big bang theory which relates with the big crunch theory. Like I said if all laws are present it cant happen.
There is no way to know what form the matter took previous to the big bang. I could have been something we can't even begin to imagine.
Something you cant imagine? Like an eternal being or God?
The big bang may have been a one time event that was triggered by some strange event in an unknown dimension. It's all a big mystery, and will most likely stay that way. All I know is that if something had to exist eternally I think it's far more likely that something simple like matter did than a powerful intelligent being.
What makes matter non-complex? What makes a God non-simple?
The fact that earth was made by collisions is what leads me to believe that it is not intelligently designed. It seems like a strange and incredibly inefficient way to create something. If I were creating a universe I would just make Earth appear fully intact.
Make the earth fully intact? Like God did? I find it a bit funny that your perfect vision of the universe is what God supposedly did. Collisions a weird way? We will never know the purpose will we?
Can I see some proof of your time theory? Because I am not understanding it. Can you time something that has no beginning and has no end?
Being eternal doesn't mean time doesn't affect you, it just means you've been around forever, which I admit is a hard concept to grasp and gives me a headache just thinking about it. The concept of eternity is mind boggling.
And if this gives you a headache then according to your reasoning intelligent design will be impossible to understand.
What makes me think that it has an end? Well we have the big rip theory and the big crunch theory. We have the theory where things continue but if all scientific laws are still present everything freezes.
Just because it freezes doesn't mean it ends. It's still there.
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Also when you say pull it back together again that is the infinite big bang theory which relates with the big crunch theory. Like I said if all laws are present it cant happen.
I'm just throwing ideas out there. Scientists are discovering new things all the time. They didn't uncover the elusive Higgs Boson particle until just last year. They still haven't figured out exactly how dark matter and dark energy work. My hypothesis that matter has always existed isn't contingent on a big crunch, I'm just brainstorming.
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Something you cant imagine? Like an eternal being or God?
Sure it's a possibility, but I find it highly unlikely, and until some kind of evidence is discovered to tell us what existed before the big bang I'm content with saying I don't know.
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What makes matter non-complex?
There isn't much to it. It's all just different combinations of very simple elements.
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What makes a God non-simple?
Consciousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. I don't see how something that powerful could be simple.
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Make the earth fully intact? Like God did? I find it a bit funny that your perfect vision of the universe is what God supposedly did.
That's because the people who made up the stories in the Bible also thought it would make more sense to make a fully intact planet then to make one by smashing stuff together.
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Can I see some proof of your time theory? Because I am not understanding it.
I'm not sure how I can provide proof of timelessness since I can't stop time, but based on what time is its not hard to extrapolate what timelessness would be like. "Time is a dimension in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them." So timelessness would be the opposite, a lack of ordered events with no past or future. With no past or future things can't change. In other words, they would be frozen. I'm not sure I can explain it any clearer than I already have. Sorry
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Can you time something that has no beginning and has no end?
Yes, if I start a clock that never stops it is tracking time. Just because it continues to do it forever doesn't mean it doesn't track time.
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And if this gives you a headache then according to your reasoning intelligent design will be impossible to understand.
I think that's the first time I've ever heard you insult someone : (
No no no buddy thats not an insult. I am saying that if this gives you a headache, as it does many, intelligent design will be outside of our level of understanding. This I only picked up by your words. Of course you are a smart person. I am just saying that in a general sense. My bad. Terrible wording.
Now everything else you mentioned seemed to be more of a day by day possibility thing. I also think that the people who wrote the bible had no idea that earth could be made by mass collisions.
I am so sure he isn't I won't waste my time explaining why. If you feel the need so much to prove to everyone that God does exist you're obviously pretty unsure of yourself and are hoping to convince yourself that you're right. Well I know I am right and need not prove it!
Jesus loved the world... those who are His share His concerns!
What good is faith if it doesn't act according to faith.
Christian faith specifically is usually the good stuff we see people
do for others.
Sharing our faith is like pulling someone out of a burning building, or warning someone of danger ahead. Taking our time to give our faith, and being concerned enough to make our religion "tangible" for the benefit of others.
We could be selfish, and live for ourselves, and may be YOU would like that. But for everyone who doesn't want to hear it there is another whose life is helped, their families strengthened, their damaged lives made better by the Christians who didn't just live in selfishness, with religion only nene fixing themselves.
So if you don't want to hear it then don't. But don't think because you don't want or need religion, those who have religion to give always have people who need the hope the love and the support of others who live by religion that gives their faith away to others so others benefit!
What would communities look like without the “voice,” and “influence” of the Christian religion?
How many people give their time and talents, and resources because of the impact of Jesus on their own lives. How many people dedicate hours to make a creative Bible camp for the joy of children. Or volunteer Sunday school time to give parents time to renew themselves in services while their children are doing fun activities teaching them God's love and how to care for others, and give role models of the golden rule.
The value Christians in general contribute to the health, and balance, and stability, and support, in the lives of everyone that live in our communities is immeasurable!
No one is perfect, but think of the people you know personaly, many you personally have loved in your own lives.
What touch or impact has religion had in your own personal sphere of experiences?
People who may have had issues, touched by religious influence exercised in their communities. It supports them, challenges them, and often pulls them up.
Religious values have influenced so many people to be better versions of themselves, as fathers and mothers, even when for 1 reason or another they may not have been capable of being better before on their own.
Many people have had strangers walk with them and carry them even when their own families didn't. Strangers who became family to them!
These damaged people don't always arrive to a standard others see as commendable, but the steps taken are leaps in a positive direction for so many of them.. Without Christianity and active Christians where would these people be?
So for everyone of you that wants to force Christians to behind closed doors, realize that if we didn't open the door of our comfortable lives, all those we helped along the way would have stayed broken. And that level of broken would have made your experience in life different too!
Example Christians have a group called Youth with a Mission.
They helped 1000's of drug addicts every year every where. So what I'd they didn't? Even if you personally weren't effected, the results effect you. If someone is addicted they often resort to crime or they are impaired and hurt others on purpose or by accident.
So before you wish faith away consider the cost of its absence!
To Dana and anyone else who says that atheists have to prove that God doesn't exist:
Its up to theists to prove that God exists not atheists to prove it doesn't. If I show you a rock in the middle of the USA and say "this keeps away tigers, prove to me it doesn't". I'm going to look like an idiot, which is what you look like everytime you say "prove that God doesn't exist.".
This and that, that and this. One thing is the balance on the universe. There is such little chance for life to start on it's own, even though it is so huge.
-You buy a lotto ticket that is played nation-wide.
--You win.
---Did God make you win?
..
..
-You are told to pick a number between one and one million.
--You guess the number right on the first try.
---Did God tell you what the number was?
..
..
-You need to paint a pineapple with your teeth....blindfolded.
--You end up painting a very detailed pineapple.
---Did God make you do that?
..
..
-You tell a friend to pick any card out of a mega-deck combined of 20 decks and NOT to reveal their card to anyone. Then have them place it back and shuffle the whole deck while you're not in the room.
--You come back in the room and on the first try you pick out their card they chose.
---Did God tell you which card it was?
Do I need to go on... or are you understanding the faulty logic that your example and mine all seem to have in common?
Why are you getting into debate if you can't stand people argumenting or if you are not capable of backing your claims with arguments and logical reasoning.
This and that, that and this.
You mean we should all put down all our arguments and change our opinion because YOU are not able to cope with arguments and have nothing better to come up with but your subjective belief? :)
Someone might say there is a big chance for life to start. But even smallest chance is still a chance. Just because the chance has small probability does not mean it can not or will not occure!
True, but it is a really slim chance. Even at that, evolution has it that life started from a cell which is nearly impossible like I said. If you put the building blocks of life into a testtube, they will not create life. After that over "billions of years". It is hard to see it that way because evolution has things change by small superiorities which over time results in differnt creatures.
You can't say that the bible might be okay with Darwin's theroy but, it says animals come from their oragins with very slight change (not the extream change evolution argues).
Actually as of lately there is more evidence and scientists believeing that life proteins and acids can be created in tube, and could be created by chance.
What do you think how life started? What did God created than? Adam & Eve, and all the animals and all the plants? He must be quite bored considering how many of species there are. Why so many? What purpose? Or you believe that humans are not allowed to question god as church preaches. By the way, if get created life, would than life change over the time by evolution?
Do you maybe think god just sparkled the life. Then he just started the cell, and life developed from there. Than suddenly the theory you found unneceptable is the one you should accept. Obviously you can't, so god couldn't just spark life and let it developed on its own. But evidence also says life changes and evolves, so god did not created life as it is today. So there is a big problem with god as creator. What do you offer as solution; or do you take more traditional approach that humans should not question god because we are not able to understand his greatness? Then why should we at all have developed logic and put effort in our everyday living, and not just go out in the woods and live our days untill we dies?
A strong atheist cannot prove anything about the universe or its creation or the existence of GOD Here is why.
A skeptic or atheist is governed by two main principles: 1) all beliefs must be supported by observational evidence, and 2) beliefs that contradict observational evidence cannot be tolerated. However, strong atheism states that there is no god, even though observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally. So despite the lack of observational evidence for a naturalistic cause for the universe, the strong atheist believes that the universe has a naturalistic cause and that there is no god, contradicting the tenet that all beliefs should be based upon observational evidence. Hmmmm kind of like finding DNA in a 450 million year old fossil. Impossible to have a fossil 450 million years old with DNA still active. DNA has half life of 521 years and is undetectable due to decay after only 50,000. Clear indication that science is proving the existence of GOD without atheist help. In fact science is severely hurting the atheist cause. So it is pointless to ask a atheist to prove the existence of GOD, it is much better to use there own science against them because for the first time since old Darwin came along with his now debunked theory, science is proving biblical scripture to be very accurate.
However, strong atheism states that there is no god, even though observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally. What evidence? Can you show us evidence that universe is created by a god? :-)
the strong atheist believes that the universe has a naturalistic causeUniverse does not need a cause.
However, typical question you will have to answer if scientist asks you is: what caused God?
all beliefs should be based upon observational evidence. So what is you observational evidence for your belief?
science is proving biblical scripture to be very accurate. Can you point us to that science? Do you mean scientologi? :-) :-) :-)
It is impossible to prove the truth doesn't exist, so you are right, it is not reasonable to ask someone to prove that the truth doesn't exist.
That is exactly the same as saying evil is God. It works with pretty much whichever abstract noun you want to throw in there: consciousness, authority, math, sexuality, warmth. It isn't an argument; it's just a metaphor. A play on words.
I don't know for sure if GOD exist or not. But he is just as good as non-existent. Try to fall from a 10th floor to the ground and yell or pray for god to save you. If you survive the fall without a scratch...
And the bibles and koran are just stupids. I value the moral they teach, but I can't comprehend the ridiculous thing they are talking about.
I feel so sorry for you wasting your life believing in something that cannot be proven. Go and advance science, go support Cancer and other serious disease research. Stop believing in a fairy tale and help out the human race.
This stuff is an exercise in stupidity. The god it invents to argue against is not God. That is the whole point of the argument, to imply that God is not good because he is god and not God. You can only argue against a god who is demoted, dethroned, and no longer God. God is still on His throne and you still need His mercy to keep you out of Hell. If you don't want His mercy, why do you bother to breathe?
Although i don't personally believe in a God, religion has served an important role in our history. Religion helped to form law and order and help people diferentiate between good and bad. However religion is now obsolite. People no longer need to fear going to hell for their crimes, they need to fear the police. Fair enough religious teachings may instil good behavior in it's pupils, but to seriously believe in a God with all the scientific facts about evolution and space, in my opinion is ignorance. Sure there is a lot yet to be explained by science, but it will explain more than any God will.
Alright suit yourself. Oh wait..... you might come back because you always say that you are "done" with God but then you end up coming back. Because you CAN'T make up your mind!!
I gave you advice on what to do and I have TRIED to help you but you refuse my help at all. You don't even listen to me when I talk to you. You're the one who started all of this by responding to me when I was debating with GuitarGuy how you said "religion is bullcrap" and then you started your usually cycle AGAIN.
You don't see what I have been doing and others see that I am trying to help you. I am no longer going to help you with these kind's of questions because it's pointless with you and I get no where with you at all. So next time, when you need help don't bother asking me. I have TRIED and TRIED over and over again and you don't get it. Until YOU learn to pay attention and I am not going to argue with you any longer about this issue. It's pointless and you are wasting my time.
I knew a man, forget what caused him to be in his predicament, forget if it was by disease or by accident, it was more than 25 years ago I sat and talked with him.
He was a total quadriplegic, tiny man in a wheel chair with arms and legs withered from not being used. He depended on people to feed him, to roll him in his bed so he would not get bed sores, to change his diaper or carry him to bathe, to brush his teeth. The man spoke with a twinkle of joy in his eyes, mixed with sorry, saying "I often ask God, why me? But then I know I'll find out one day when I am in Heaven, so it's ok, this is what God wants for me so I'll take it from his hand and trust Him to bring me through." The man asked for no sympathy, he only asked for a few moments of my time to tell me to trust God no matter what, and I am still thankful for having the opportunity to have talked with that man.
Weres the vidence that there is somehow a large bearded patriarch that created the universe? Exactly, its just as likely that it was a flying spaggetti monster.
Atheism is the default position to the claim that any god or gods exist until evidence proportional to that claim is presented. Atheism is more rational than theism because there is no evidence that any deity does or has ever existed.
God was made by man. Evolution proves it. 6 million years ago, when hominids appeared they didn't worship god. All of the sudden when civilization forms we do.
The Bible has many errors. The Bible says describes Adam and Eve as Homo sapiens. Homo Sapiens evolves at least 400'000 years ago. The first Humans evolved from an ape along with Chimps, 6 million years ago, we call them hominids or pronto humans. They didn't worship god. That's a biblical error.
The bible says that the Great Flood happened 2-3,000 years ago. The great flood did happen, but when the ice age ended. When all the ice caps melted in the ice age, water level sky rocketed.
Jesus is a fraud. His story shares a lot of similarities with Horus, Hercules, and Krishna.if Jesus Christ was a savior he wouldn't have let Hitler kill off his own people, Jewish people. Jesus is so called a "god among men", he would have saved his own people from being killed off. But Christians says that the devil produced the holocaust. It's just a petty excuse to this "God's" errors. That's one reason why I'm Atheist.
Jesus is a fraud. His story shares a lot of similarities with Horus, Hercules, and Krishna.
Let me go point to point.
Firstly Horus was not born from a virgin. I would secondly like to point out Jesus was probably not born on December 25 and the true date is unknown but somewhere from 6 BC-0 BC. The claim Jesus is a Rip-off of Horus came from (or at least popularized)a 2007 movie called Zeitgeist and gained popularity among some Atheists and spread among the web. The movie Zeitgeist is widely criticized for it's factual errors.
Thirdly and lastly Horus did not have 12 followers he had 4 Heru-Shemsu or followers of Horus and at some point of the story they reference 16 followers of Horus. Horus had mesnui who were followers who went with him into battle but nowhere did he have 12 followers.
I do not hate on people that do believe in god, but I don't. I find it hard to believe there is some magical giant man living in the sky so far I can't see. I believe in heaven though. In a way it makes sense that people believe in god. They need something to make them feel important or significant. I do, however, believe there is something, but I think of it more as a force than a god or person.
Religion started off as an explanation for things that people couldn't understand. It has developed, over time, into Christianity among other religions. If miracles are possible, answer me this: how are those miracles preformed? If you say "God made the miracles happen" than how could he do it? There is no logical explanation. Science is this: Lack of evidence or logic=We don't know yet. Theism is this: Believe in tradition, anything that contradicts tradition is not true. People who believe in that mindset, you are being ignorant about logic, evidence and science in general.
If there was such a supreme being as God, why would he hide himself from the world? And if we're talking about the christian God, why would he not show himself, but give eternal hell to those who don't believe in the story.
There are so many details like this one, that don't fit.
An all powerful God doesn't have to show himself to us. And a righteous God would have to punish any unrighteousness. And God created us to have the choice of belief in him, so obviously anyone who doesn't accept his truth is unrighteous in his sight, therefore, he must punish it with eternal separation from him. Does that tell you what you need to know?
It makes sense to assume that everything has a cause. The universe is the totality of all that exists. God is the cause of the universe. It makes no sense to say that the universe was caused by an entity in the universe. Therefore god is outside of the universe. Therefore god does not exist.
God is an imaginary figure created by people who don't want to think and do research due to pure laziness. Science is the physical evidence around us. Things that we can hold, touch, feel, smell. To live in fear for your your entire life that this figure is going to send you to a pit of fire is useless. Another thing is let your children grow up and decide for THEMSELVES. Introduce them to religions (of course when they're old enough to understand) and they take it from there.
Honestly, I'm going to give an analogy my friend gave me in an example conversation, knowing I didn't believe in god. Its called the unicorn analogy.
We see horses all of the time. You my friends can touch a horse, photograph a horse, feel a horse, right? So you assume a horse exists.
Now, take a unicorn. You don't see unicorns walking around in the middle of the woods. At most you see someone put a birthday hat on a horse. So, you don't assume they exist.
I honestly don't think so. Simply because there never was presented any evidence for him. Only source of "God's myth" are stone age misunderstandings and bronze age mythology.
Does God exist ? No, well at least I don't think so , but does Jesus exist ? Maybe , but he should be remembered as history and not advocated into beliefs , people should let go of this because its just another illusion to make you believe there's is another exit or make you feel like you are not alone , but in fact your soul dies with you when your time comes , and all you can do is just close your eyes and wait for it , surely you can hold your family's hands and pray , but that does not do anything but to make everyone even sadder and you are still all alone .
Maybe the fact was that "they just want to remember him forever" then people took it the wrong way and made him God and started worshiping him .
Why can't he just be remembered ? why does he have to be worshiped?
I asked my mother(who believes in Buddha) the same,but she replies
"because some people actually saw them,gave them a hand when they're in the need of it .",then she asked me not discuss this any further because this may offend someone .
So should I believe anything just because some people may or may not experienced ? I don't think so , you can't be serious just to believe it because your friends or neighborhoods told you so, because if you do then you aren't believing anything but following blindfold .
I'll believe all this when I actually see it with my own eyes , awake , not heard it or saw it from some people or books , or even from the dreams .
(Please forgive me if there's any mistakes in my comment , English wasn't my first language)
Wanna really hear God speaking? Just take your car, better your bycicle, and ride to the closest park or forest to your house, then, when a bird will sing, or a wolf willl howl, you will know God's voice. God is nature, and we are definitely kill him.
God doesn't exist because, I mean...HOW DO WE EVEN KNOW IF THERE'S A GOD IF WE HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN ONE?? Like for real guys, when people first roamed this earth, who made up a word called "GOD?" The apes probably just thought that there had to be a creator so they made up a name and SUPPOSED that there even WAS creator of this world. WHICH I HIGHLY AND EXTREMELY DOUBT IT. And also, if the Bible consists of humans, and the Earth first started out with all the Dinosaurs and other things like fish and Cackaroaches, WELL THEN GUESS WHAT? APPARENTLY HUMANS ROAMED THE EARTH FIRST BECAUSE GOD IS SAID TO BE A HUMAN, RIGHT???? Well im done now bye
Although there's millions around the world who disagree because of "miracles", they have no proof that any of their gods exist. Science has more than enough proof to back up their theories, but all Theists have is what they read in books and what elders have told them.
Since there's no middle ground for agnostic, I should say that intelligent design is as stupid as mosquitoes or any other parasites. That shit is not intelligent. If an intelligent creator designed them to control populations, this intelligent designer... SUCKS! Surely there should be a more painless way to control populations, but it's too stupid to figure it out.
Moreover, human genitals. What the hell are those about? Why can't the 'intelligent' designer make it so that menstrual blood could be voluntarily released through the urethra? Why not give the male genital area better protection?
If God does exist he is incredibly non interventionist ,I find it quiet baffling that a belief in something you can't see ,touch ,or hear is even labelled as God ...hope fully some time in the future if you make such claims men dressed in white coats will come and take such individuals away for treatment
if god existed we would all be dead. in the bible he says that punishment for sin is death and that all have sinned. so therfore if he existed he would kill us and we would all be in hell. all you theists have your heads up your butts when you deny the facts in front of your face. go live on an island
There's actually a loophole. If you have faith in Jesus, who didn't even have faith in God, even though he is God, you get away with doing whatever you want and all is A-OK when you croak.
Amino Acids can not randomly combine to create protein molecule, more or less a living cell. No known natural process can explain the generation of the first living things on earth. The natural creation of even the molecules to create life violates the laws of thermodynamics. All natural processes convert chemicals from high organization to high chaos, simpler molecules. That is the reason why, after millions of years of death on earth. It would take large amounts of directed focused energy to create the first living cells on the planet. Without organization, the creation of a single protein has the same odds as a tornado going through a scrapyard and assembling a working Boeing 747.
See the Law of Biogenesis. Scientific laws essentially prove the existence of a higher power.
Amino Acids can not randomly combine to create protein molecule
This is more or less false. There have been experiments that were able to demonstrate that nucleobases and amino acids can form spontaneously. We can't rule out proteins being able to form.
more or less a living cell.
This is a massive jump in the evolutionary cycle so it seems incredibly difficult to imagine the possibility. Over the course of millions of years simple molecules can become more complex. The problem you have with a cell is that you assume it is done randomly. A cell isn't created randomly now, and the very first cell wouldn't have to be a random event where the molecules all came together. The smaller "complex" molecules that have been forming for many many years could have created it in a "designed" way that is less random.
No known natural process can explain the generation of the first living things on earth.
But, just because it isn't known yet doesn't mean God did it.
The natural creation of even the molecules to create life violates the laws of thermodynamics.
This misconception comes from not recognizing the Earth is not a closed system. The Earth receives energy from the sun. Any life that spontaneously forms could have received its energy from the sun, directly or indirectly. Plus, the Earth's core contains a massive amount of energy that can be harnessed.
Without organization, the creation of a single protein has the same odds as a tornado going through a scrapyard and assembling a working Boeing 747.
This is true for a specific protein. If you pick any protein around today, the odds are insurmountable. But, if we talk about any possible protein chain, including incredibly small proteins, the odds become very likely.
See the Law of Biogenesis.
The law of Biogenesis is not as rock solid as you seem to believe. No one has proven that it is impossible for life to come from non life in all cases. With one act of abiogenesis where small nucleotides and amino acids formed spontaneously you have the life needed for the law of biogenesis to be valid.
Scientific laws essentially prove the existence of a higher power.
The higher power would have to break the law of biogenesis as well, so you haven't fixed anything.
Biogenesis was accepted as fact. Life comes from life, it does not come from rocks an water. Why don't you explain to me how 100,000,000,000,000 atoms arranged themselves to form the first cell at random. Complete with a functional DNA and happening to be in an environment where it can survive.
The entire scientific community has a vested interest in showing where life came from, but you can't.
If God knows everything, then the concept of free will does not exist.
If God can do anything, then why weren't the Malaysian Plane victims saved? Why wasn't the Oso mudslide stopped? Why are there earthquakes and tsunamis and fires that kill people? Why is there poverty and child abuse and war?
Because:
a) God is a cruel God, willing to let people, including children, suffer.
(I know wikis aren't very reliable sources, but they had great points on there.)
Also, I'd like to add on:
Most of theists' arguments are based on the Bible or other //religious// things. Whereas the atheist side has given plenty of //scientific// proofs. I'd like the theists to know that we atheists won't believe you or take your points seriously until you:
a) Point out the mistakes in our theories and proofs without any religious sources.
b) Point out a part of a scientific theory that actually supports the idea that God exists.
....Otherwise, we'll just treat it like we would a fairy tale. If you still don't understand:
Without any scientific evidence, we'll believe in God as much as you would believe in Zeus.
A creator of the energy that surrounds us is possible but we do not have enough information to know. As the human race seeks to find these anwsers through science; i appreciate all the hard work physicists do. I have a hunch that when we have a break through; it will not be as simple as a god or no god but something so vastly incredible our minds will be super physiqued! Maybe; just maybe life is a by product of something larger, more significant and maybe its not. All i do know is that these are just the beginnings of questions; the ethers of curiosity. I LOVE BEING HUMAN AND WOMEN ARE SEXY!
While I do not entirely rule out the possibility, I have not yet been convinced. I have seen numerous lines of evidence, but they mostly rely on base speculation, ignorance and emotional bias. Show me something concrete, and just maybe a believer could be made out of me.
You cannot prove that God (Christian) actually exist. The bible is not a source of proof because you have no idea if that is actually gods words. For all we know the bible could have been written by a bunch of old men. Until you Christians find actual proof of God being real, I will continue to not fully believe in it. I was born and raised Christian and I'm scared to actually let him go, which I why I don't want to FULLY kick him out of my life, but I still don't believe a lot of that stuff.
Ok, so the bible says that being gay is wrong, but rape marriages, child abuse, slavery, misogyny, and war is? Please someone explain that logic to me. The bible says that God loves EVERYONE, gay or not. The bible should not be considered a "moral guidebook" until you can physically prove that God exists.
I m not really arguing against a creator. But am gonna assure you that WE are masters of our OWN DESTINY! Sitting around praying for God to solve things is a total useless waste of time. It's up to us and God is not involved with day to day human life. If there is a god then he gave us the brain to solve our own problems.
An equal burden of proof for the side of atheism is unreasonable. There is no reason to need to disprove something that has yet to be proven, only the affirmative claim has to provide proof. Atheists don't make the argument that there is no god, just that there is no reason to believe in one due to lack of evidence.
If you ask most people whether they believe in Unicorns, or Gnomes, they will almost always say they don't.
When you ask them why, they'll usually say that they haven't seen Unicorns or Gnomes before and that there isn't any evidence that they are real.
You'll get the same answer and justification if you bring up gods like Zeus, or Ra, or Mithras, or Odin. These mythical gods are more than fairy tales - people genuinely held beliefs in them -- and yet the majority of people now reject them.
Why can't the same logic be applied to God?
All theists are left with at this point is their scripture. Most often, the Bible.
When you ask someone to defend the divine authority of the Bible, guess what they invoke? Oh yeah, the Bible.
The Bible is true because the Bible says the Bible is true. Totally checks out.
--
We have evolved to attribute phenomenon we see to humans or living entities. If we thought the noise in the grass was a lion, and it was, we were safe. If it wasn't, it didn't matter. If we thought the noise in the grass was the wind, and it was a lion, we were screwed. (essentially this is Pascal's wager). Those who attributed what they saw around them to conscious behavior survived more often, so they eventually took over the gene pool. We are the descendents of those people.
This lead to organized religion, leading to indoctrination, leading to the billions of blind followers we see today.
Theists are often ignorant when following the words of religious texts. They don't accept the burden of proof, and often use examples of coincidence to explain prayer. But here's an example of prayer that suggests god isn't real. If I went out to church, and prayed for God to end all violence on Earth, to stop poverty, diesease, and other suffering, nothing would change. If I had my entire family do the same, nothing would change. If every single Atheist and Theist prayed to end suffering on Earth, every day, nothing would change for those suffering. Some theists use prayer to make themselves feel better, but it doesn't affect those that they pray for. Theists teach that God cares about everyone, but there are over seven billion people on this planet, and billions of billions of planets in the universe. If God is all-powerful enough to create a universe like our own, he would be powerful and moral enough to end suffering in it as well. Religion is a lie create by those who wish to gain recognition or power, not by those who wish to make a better Earth.
Most arguments supporting Theism state the fact that the world is so amazing, it must have a creator. We forget one very simple fact, no one has counted the failed attempts. To be more exact, theories suggest the existence of a multiverse or recurring universes. In an infinite number of universes with an infinite combination of people, it is not only possible but probable that the universe we are living in will be formed. We just happen to only exist in this one. And because of the nature of the other ones, we could never exist in them or know they existed.
The fact is, the belief in god stands as little more than a simple way of explaining the unknown and incomprehensible. There is so much we cannot even imagine, merely because our brains are too tiny and too simple. Though we cannot comprehend it, it still is science without God. Just because you cannot imagine the size of a cell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
There isn't any proof of a "God", faith isn't reason. Can you see, hear, small, feel, or any kind of reason to support that there is a God. Saying there is a God is like me saying i can shoot fire from my mouth but only when no one is looking.
I won't assert that God (the one in any of the currently practiced religions) does not exist, but I will say the chance is so low that it's safe to assume he doesn't. Science has disproved religion on numerous occasions, proving the Bible is a book of metaphors and fairy tales. To still believe the Bible is right about God is kind of ridiculous. It's like saying "I understand a lot of the stories in the Bible are up to not only interpretation, but are meant to be metaphors, turning the Bible into a work of fiction, but hey let's still believe a couple of the things in it."
I haven't personally seen anything that supports the existence of God, so I will say it is safe to assume he probably doesn't exist.
I think that humans do not want to believe that after life is just a blank slate with no remembrance or recollection of your previous life. People want to believe that their life on earth is not completely worthless and insignificant in respect to Earth's existence. Realistically, God is just the answer to the things that people don't have answers for, but I don't think God necessarily has to deal with morals, sacrificing, and purifying.
I was watching a documentary last night (1/4/2016). It was about a famous POW rescue in the Philippines. After the rescue, the Japs made a revenge attack on the local town, killing everyone in it for the probability that they assisted in the rescue. The largest number of bodies were found in the towns church where people fled for safety. "God will protect us!" (That's what they were taught by the devout, but naïve, Pastor). HE, however unwittingly, caused the deaths of many who may have escaped into the jungle. "God" did nothing to protect them "IN HIS HOUSE"! Same thing, on a smaller scale, happened in that SC Church a few weeks ago. Many give "God" credit for a "miracle" when one survives out of many. No outrage that the "many" died and HE did nothing to save them. If a "god" like that exists, I would not follow S/HE/IT simply because it is such a cruel "god". We ALWAYS see more tragedy than we do "miracles". If I were a "god" running a Universe, I would do a far better job protecting my "creations" or I would consider myself cruel and vicious with a truly SADISTIC form of "love"! Enjoy your maker! To me S/HE/IT doesn't deserve "worship". If I showed people the "love" he shows, I'd be executed!
There isn't a "sitting on the fence option", so I'll just put my view on this here.
Let's say that God is real. Adam and Eve we're the first humans on earth, Jesus did die for our sins, there was a huge flood, and so on. Let's say that in this universe where God is definitely real and is all-powerful, all-good, and knows everything, people begin to question his motives, such as "Why does God let bad things happen? Why does he kill others? What is his ulterior motive for doing this?".
This can't be countered by reminding them of the incident of Adam and Eve, where they we're tempted by Satan to eat the apple on the forbidden tree. They won't believe in this story because if God was all-powerful, he would have definitely stopped Satan. However, it can be countered by saying that God didn't want us to be robots. By this, I mean that he wanted us to make our own decisions and think for ourselves in order to prove that we do care for him and are willing to stick with him throughout the tests that he gives us. (A good example of this is in the story of Job in the Bible, where a mans faith was pushed to it's limits when he lost his wealth, friends, and family, but kept believing in God.) People also hear from God, as he will help them in harsher situations or explain things to them more often.
Now, let's go over to the other reality where God does not truly exist. Many people are against this ideology and the religions that surround it because of many different reasons.
The main reason that people do not actually believe in God is because of the huge amount of religions that surround it. Lots of religions are based on a God, but not all of these can actually be true. Catholics, Protestants, Anglicanism, Methodism, Pentecosts, Quakers, even radical groups, all differ in their own ways. If God was truly real, he would direct the people to the right religion. This wouldn't make them robots, and would only influence one part of their life. People in this reality also disagree with the culture that surrounds the religions. They don't like the attitudes that some have, those often being related to gun crimes, same sex marriage, war, circumcisions, and the ten commandments. They do not think an all powerful, all knowing God would test people this way or should test them at all.
The question will never be answered though. The debate really is pointless. There will never be a definitive, truthful answer to it until we're all dead. And maybe we won't even know the answer then. A fun one to talk about, mind you.
If you have not completed an honest investigation then you are rassuming. And assuming based on others assumptions doesnt convince anyone. You are obviously angry about God.
There is probably something on your life that is angry at God if He does exist.
So if God did exist what about Him.makes you angry?
I can't figure out how you create something out of nothing. If nothing but "God" existed he would first have to create the metals and minerals and gasses, turn them into compounds, and ,,,, did he breath air that didn't exist?? Hard to do when he created "US" in His own image.?? And why create "billions and billions" of other planets and suns, and moons, comets and space rocks?? Black holes and dark matter?
He was a bad influence on his creations. Now we go around creating lies and stories about our fellow "creations". I think he should go back to the drawing board and get rid of everything unnecessary. (Wait, that would make him a Libertarian. Forget I mentioned it.)
God is all powerful and all knowing. He has created all things and all matter. You are not able to fathom the creativity of our all-knowing Father. You could never possibly understand why God does a lot of what He does. But He is God, He has to explain NOTHING to you, or me, or anyone else. He doesn't need air. Just because He created us in his image doesn't mean we have the same functions as He does. Keep in mind the word 'image' doesn't mean ways we survive or live. He created all planets and moons, and comets to show His imagination and creativity. All things, in the end, are a way to glorify Him and to show us more proof for the evidence of our God.
Your hate-speech towards God will destroy you in the end, and keep you in eternal separation from Him. I pray that someday the scales will be removed from your eyes. God bless you ;)
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes--epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness--have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.
It has been over a century now since Nietzsche explored nihilism and its implications for civilization. As he predicted, nihilism's impact on the culture and values of the 20th century has been pervasive, its apocalyptic tenor spawning a mood of gloom and a good deal of anxiety, anger, and terror. Interestingly, Nietzsche himself, a radical skeptic preoccupied with language, knowledge, and truth, anticipated many of the themes of postmodernity. It's helpful to note, then, that he believed we could--at a terrible price--eventually work through nihilism. If we survived the process of destroying all interpretations of the world, we could then perhaps discover the correct course for humankind.
Nietzsche had a lot to say for himself and a lot of his “ philosophical “ arguments are little more than him airing his personal grievances against Christianity ; all of what you say might hold sway with individuals who claim to be armchair philosophers for me Nietzsche was interesting to a point but he was also barking mad and spent a good part of his life in an asylum for the insane
Although I respect religious people, I do not think God exists.
You might say, if there was no God, then how was the universe created? Then, I'll say: nobody knows. If you're saying that God created the universe, then God came before the universe? That doesn't make sense.
If God didn't create the universe, then God created the Earth. I say: I believe the Earth was created by the Big Bang. Also, if God created the Earth, and the humans, and all the animals at the same time, then why weren't there any humans or a bunch of the animals when dinosaurs existed?
God is up in the sky, watching over us. I say: the only thing I see in the sky are clouds, above the clouds airplanes, and above airplanes outer space. I don't see anything in the sky apart from clouds and airplanes. I don't see any people, or any gates in the clouds, either.
The ignorance in all of this is pretty clear. Of course you can't see god he's a spiritual being. If God didn't exist then how is one capable to feel guilty or love or any type of feeling. You can not expect that cells make up feelings or neurons.. it's God he created Adam and Eve to love and to value, without God we don't have existence. And what about the numerous of evidence presented from people who have allegedly died and gone to heaven, of course you may say oh a hoax but out of the thousands it can't be a hoax some have to be true. For the past 10,000 years at a minimum, the most important changes in human existence have been driven by cultural developments occurring in the realm of human ideas, God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us.Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
Jesus Christ reveals God to us - Photo of a man reading the Bible to learn more about Jesus Christ.He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."14 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."15
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.16
We can all agree there is right and wrong. How something like the Holocaust is wrong. We have a moral standard. God exists, at least as a concept which represents the right side of something. What I can think is this is science vs morals. You can't deny the fact that science is correct. Morals also exist, but there are examples of morals clashing with science. Thinking off the top of my head, I use genetic engineering as an example. Is it ethical to use it on humans. Is it unethical to not use it when it can hold the key to saving lives? Also, many theories of science aren't proven, so technically, it isn't correct. When you say "God created the universe", where is the proof? How can an entity that can't be perceived have created our reality? Also issues like Hitler mass murdering Jews and other people existing contradicts a loving God. Why would evil exist in this world if God exists? If God doesn't exist, how could righteousness exist? How would we know right from wrong? Killing your neighbor wouldn't be wrong because it benefits you when you take their stuff. Humans are capable of the good side towards each other because God represents the good in human society towards each other. Because there is a right, there is also a wrong. That wrong is what benefits an individual, while the right is good for everyone. God is the good in everyone in one entity.