A Civil Religious Debate

What makes me think that it has an end? Well we have the big rip theory and the big crunch theory. We have the theory where things continue but if all scientific laws are still present everything freezes.

Just because it freezes doesn't mean it ends. It's still there.

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Also when you say pull it back together again that is the infinite big bang theory which relates with the big crunch theory. Like I said if all laws are present it cant happen.

I'm just throwing ideas out there. Scientists are discovering new things all the time. They didn't uncover the elusive Higgs Boson particle until just last year. They still haven't figured out exactly how dark matter and dark energy work. My hypothesis that matter has always existed isn't contingent on a big crunch, I'm just brainstorming.

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Something you cant imagine? Like an eternal being or God?

Sure it's a possibility, but I find it highly unlikely, and until some kind of evidence is discovered to tell us what existed before the big bang I'm content with saying I don't know.

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What makes matter non-complex?

There isn't much to it. It's all just different combinations of very simple elements.

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What makes a God non-simple?

Consciousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. I don't see how something that powerful could be simple.

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Make the earth fully intact? Like God did? I find it a bit funny that your perfect vision of the universe is what God supposedly did.

That's because the people who made up the stories in the Bible also thought it would make more sense to make a fully intact planet then to make one by smashing stuff together.

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Can I see some proof of your time theory? Because I am not understanding it.

I'm not sure how I can provide proof of timelessness since I can't stop time, but based on what time is its not hard to extrapolate what timelessness would be like. "Time is a dimension in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them." So timelessness would be the opposite, a lack of ordered events with no past or future. With no past or future things can't change. In other words, they would be frozen. I'm not sure I can explain it any clearer than I already have. Sorry

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Can you time something that has no beginning and has no end?

Yes, if I start a clock that never stops it is tracking time. Just because it continues to do it forever doesn't mean it doesn't track time.

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And if this gives you a headache then according to your reasoning intelligent design will be impossible to understand.

I think that's the first time I've ever heard you insult someone : (

Now how can matter eternally exist if the big bang spreads it around and it has an end?

What makes you think it has an end? Just because it spreads around and eventually drifts off into space doesn't mean it ends. It may just continue to drift forever but it will still exist, or maybe some strange event that we don't have any understanding of yet will cause all the dark energy in the universe to reverse and instead of pushing everything apart it will pull it all back together again. We may never know the answer.

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If not an infinite lineage of big bangs yet one occured how does matter eternally exist?

There is no way to know what form the matter took previous to the big bang. I could have been something we can't even begin to imagine. The big bang may have been a one time event that was triggered by some strange event in an unknown dimension. It's all a big mystery, and will most likely stay that way. All I know is that if something had to exist eternally I think it's far more likely that something simple like matter did than a powerful intelligent being.

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Who knows? Maybe there is a purpose.

Maybe. I guess we'll just have to wait and wonder.

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Also the way you describe a better universe is odd. If things didnt collide with each other then earth wouldnt exist. Earth was made by collisions.

The fact that earth was made by collisions is what leads me to believe that it is not intelligently designed. It seems like a strange and incredibly inefficient way to create something. If I were creating a universe I would just make Earth appear fully intact.

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Neatly in place in perfect harmony? How so? Would you bend the laws of physics and all the astronomical properties that you know of now?

Sure, why not. If I have the power to create a universe I imagine I could do just about anything I wanted.

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How can you be affected by time if you started the clock?

If the clock was started, that means there was a time before the clock was started. There can be no before without time already existing.

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Why would you be frozen?

Imagine you want to watch a movie the way an omniscient being who is outside of time would see it. It would be like if you took every single frame from the movie, overlapped them all into one image, and displayed that one image on the screen. The movie wouldn't move at all because without time there is no sequence of events. Everything would appear frozen, including yourself because if you are not in time you can't eat your popcorn because that is a sequence of events.

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I understand the sequence of events but even the bible had a semi right idea (God said 1 day to him is of a thousand years to man) and if you are not affected by time you are not bound by any of its effects.

But the effects of time are what allows us to function. If you discard time you discard everything that requires a sequence of events, which is pretty much everything. The act of god creating the universe in 7 days or 7000 years still requires time, even if it's on a different scale. Any and all actions are dependent on time.

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You are eternal. You can still do what ever. In order to be eternal time cannot affect you.

Being eternal doesn't mean time doesn't affect you, it just means you've been around forever, which I admit is a hard concept to grasp and gives me a headache just thinking about it. The concept of eternity is mind boggling.

Matter came from the big bang.

As I already said before multiple times, the big bang didn't create matter, the matter already existed in some other form. The big bang just spread it around.

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How in the world does it exist if an infinite lineage of big bangs cannot happen?

I never said anything about an infinite lineage of big bangs. We have no way of knowing whether there have been other big bangs or what existed before the big bang. It's one of those mysteries we may never know the answer to.

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Also the sun cannot supernova and it is sort of a petpeeve when people say that. It will turn into a red giant and exahale all its gas and become a white dwarf. It doesnt have enough msss to supernova.

My bad. Either way, it will wipe out all life on earth.

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The universe is fine tuned dispite your definition.

Fine tuned for what? The reason I included those definitions was to show that fine tuning requires a goal or purpose.

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Your definition of perfection would not support life.

If I had the power to create a universe I could easily come up with a better universe that could support life. For starters I wouldn't create the whole thing with a big bang, I would put everything neatly in place where it is in perfect harmony and not smashing into each other. I would make planets stable so they aren't plagued with natural disasters. I would make most plants edible, etc.

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Everything occurs by a chain of >>>random<<< events and a smidge of luck. We are lucky to still be alive. We are lucky oxygen and hydrogen elements were brought to this planet by meteors colliding with earth which you claim to be catastrophic. Those events brought life.

You just made my point. The universe is not fine-tuned, it is "random" and we are here by "luck", not fine-tuning by some intelligent designer. If it was fine-tuned our planet wouldn't be plagued with natural disasters. If it's fine-tuned then why are 99% of all species that have ever lived on this planet extinct? Whoever is doing the fine-tuning needs to be fired because he is doing a lousy job.

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If time isnt affecting you you are frozen? Who said that?

I said it. Remember, without time there is no sequence of events. Pick any series of actions, like eating a bowl of cereal, and try to imagine how you would do it without a sequence of events? If an intelligent designer does anything at all it would requires a sequence of events. If he/she wants to move a planet 100 yards, the first event would be coming up with the idea to move the planet. The next events would be moving the planet inch by inch until it reaches it's destination. The next event would be stopping the planet. No time, no sequence of events, nothing happens, it's frozen.

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I know the debate is called "Does God exist?" but the side is labeled "deism".

I guess I'm blind because I don't see the word "deism" anywhere on this page.

I am not talking about God. I am talking about an intelligent designer. Not God. So I cant really answer your first paragraph because I am not talking about God.

This debate is titled "Does God exist" so I assumed that is who we were talking about. It really doesn't matter what we call the intelligent designer, I just used God because that's what most people call it.

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Also if the big bang is not the beginning what is?

There may not be a beginning. That's the point I've been trying to make. I think maybe all of the matter that our universe is made of has always existed in some form. We have no way of knowing for sure, but I find it more believable that basic matter can always exist verses an incredibly intelligent and powerful being always existing.

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Also you say nothing can happen without time but if you are eternal time is nothing. Time isn't affecting you.

If time isn't affecting you, then you are frozen. Without time there can be no sequence of events, nothing can change. Without time I can't type this message because pressing each key on my keyboard is a sequence of events. An intelligent designer that is not in time wouldn't be able to design anything because the act of designing and creating is a sequence of events, and therefore dependent on time.

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I am aware that the frequency of events doesn't mean it isn't chaotic but this isn't chaos. These things are just deadly and catastrophic to us.

Black holes are catastrophic to anything that crosses their path. Supernovas are catastrophic for all nearby planets. Galaxies colliding are catastrophic for everything in them. The universe is filled with destruction. Our sun will eventually go supernova and kill every living thing on the planet, but before that happens a rogue asteroid will most likely kill us.

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Order in the universe? How is it not ordered? What is order in the universe?

Things not colliding with each other and being smashed into a million piece or being sucked into black holes would be a start.

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Our planet got lucky and had the perfect distance from a star and the perfect elements to support life which happened from these "chaotic" events. Chaos is only in the human mind.

There are approximately 7 sextillion stars in the observable universe, that's 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Scientists estimate that there are around 100 billion galaxies in the universe with 100 billion planets in each one. So that's 100 billion times 100 billion, 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. The chances of some of those planets having the right conditions to support some form of life are not nearly as improbable as they may seem. Scientists have already discovered many planets in our galaxy that are the right distance from a sun, and they think those planets may be able to support life.

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Tell me with earth and its ability to support life is that not fine tuned?

That's not fine tuning, that just what happens when you have such a massive number of planets. The chances of some of them being able to support life are not that unlikely, especially when you consider that the first form of life was most likely a microscopic single-celled organism. Think of how much microscopic surface area there is on 100 billion billion planets and just how many different conditions exist on all those planets.

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Are stars not fine tuned? Are planets not fine tuned? Are black holes not fine tuned?

I don't see how any of those things are fine-tuned. All of those things are just hunks of various matter that have coalesced due to gravity. If they were all the same then it would appear that they were fined-tuned, but all of those things vary greatly, just as you would expect if they were created from a random event. There are lots of different types of stars with different chemical compositions. The makeup of planets varies greatly. Just think about all the different types of planets just in our solar system. This multitude of variations points to randomness, not fine-tuning.

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Simply because you cannot find a reason for its existence or cant find anything to support it doesn't mean that people cant still believe in it.

I never said they can't. I'm just saying that I personally see no reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence. If other people want to do so, that it their choice.

Fine tuning doesn't imply what you are stating. It doesn't have to have a goal. It is simply fine tuned.

Fine-tune

1. "To adjust precisely so as to bring to the highest level of performance or effectiveness."

2. "To improve through minor alteration or revision."

In definition 1 the goal is to bring something "to the highest level of performance or effectiveness." In order to gauge whether it is performing correctly or effectively you need to know it's purpose.

In definition 2 the act of improving something means you have a goal of making it better than it currently is because it is not serving its purpose as effectively as it should.

This being can exist outside of our spacetime and it is not applicable to our laws.

If god is not bound by time, then that would mean everything that ever happened in the past, present, and future happens instantaneously for him. Without time there is no sequence of events. Without a sequence of events everything comes to a grinding halt. When did Satan get thrown out of heaven? Was it before or after he rebelled? The answer is neither because there is no sequence of events, so it couldn't even happen. The concept of a timeless existence is nonsensical. A timeless being can't interact with anything in time because everything is simultaneous to him. He would have to step into time to interact with a specific moment in time and then step back out of time. The concept is mind bogling the more you think about it.

Has time always existed? If not, that would mean there was timelessness before time existed, but that's impossible because without time there is no before.

Try to picture how god would see the universe. Every moment that has ever happened and will happen would be frozen and overlapping because without time there is no sequence of events. He wouldn't even be able to see me because all the people, plants, animals, and mountains that have ever existed where I am sitting right now would be overlapping me.

Nothing can happen without time.

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If we have evidence of a big bang then it had a beggining and thus cannot be eternal and also makes you contradict your entire theory.

The big bang didn't create matter. It was just a tranformation of existing matter.

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This isnt chaos. This is just stuff that isnt normal for us. Stars explode. Black holes form. Dark matter is present. Anti matter could exist. I mean it isnt chaos. These things happen all over the universe on a daily basis.

Just because it happens often doesn't mean it's not chaotic. Chaos has nothing to do with the frequency of events.

Chaos:

1. A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.

2. A disorderly mass; a jumble:

The universe is very disordered, less so than it used to be because things are moving farther away from each other so there are less collisions, but it is still filled with disorderly events like the ones I described.

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True, there is absolutely no reason to believe in such a being. Doesnt mean people cant explore it and believe it is there.

Sure, I see no reason people shouldn't explore it, but I don't see any reason to believe it until there is some kind of evidence to support it.

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This universe is extremely fine tuned and some things still boggle scientists like stars that burn at room temperature or stars the size of jupiter or the theoretical things like nemesis and nibiru. They are all possible. Nibiru and nemesis have been shown to not exist but scientists agree that it is 100% possible for them to exist.

It's also 100% possible that there are aliens controlling our thoughts, but just because something is possible doesn't mean it should be taken seriously.

I don't see how any of those things you pointed out are examples of fine tuning.

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This is a fine tuned universe. The way things occur is mind blowing.

The universe is fascinating, but I don't think fine-tuned is an accurate description. Fine-tuning implies there is a goal or purpose in mind and fine-tuning is necessary to achieve that goal. What goal or purpose would there be for a universe that is 99.999999999999% uninhabitable.

Your number three still leaves the question as to what created those initial things? They cannot just always exist.

Then god can't either. Why can something as complex as a god always exist, but something as simple as the basic elements not always exist?

They must have been created by something.

Then that something that created them must have also been created, and that something had to be created by something, and so on.

Why can an intelligent designer not make the big bang?

I didn't say it couldn't. I'm saying it would be a very poor way of designing something. The chaos of the universe indicates a lack of design.

Why cant it be conscious?

Again, I didn't say it couldn't, I said it was unlikely because it defies everything we know about consciousness.

The thing is that just because you didnt or currently dont see it doesnt mean it is there or isnt happening.

I agree, but until there is some kind of reason to believe something is there or is happening, there is no good reason to do so. It's pure conjecture. Just because I currently don't see fairies doesn't mean they don't exist, but until some evidence is found to support their existence I see no reason to believe in them.

If matter cannot be created or destroyed then I think that something must put it there.

That's a contradiction. I've changed the last few words of what you said to make it stand out. "If matter cannot be created or destroyed then I think that something must create it."

Like I said above, why can something as complex as a god always exist, but something as simple as the basic elements not always exist?

We can't assign precise probability, but we can weigh the evidence for each hypothesis to see which one is more probable.

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HYPOTHESIS 1: The matter that our universe is made of is eternal and just changes forms.

Supporting Evidence:

1) We have observed matter.

2) We have observed matter change into many different forms.

3) The law of conservation of matter states that matter can't be created or destroyed. Therefore, it is eternal.

Potential Problems:

I can't think of any off the top of my head. Can you think of any?

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HYPOTHESIS 2: A powerful and eternal god created the universe.

Supporting Evidence:

1) God appeared on toast ;)

I honestly can't think of anything that isn't easily refuted, so I'll let you come up with the supporting evidence.

Potential Problems:

1) God would have to be a conscious being. We have never observed consciousness from anything that doesn't have a brain. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but it does seem unlikely.

2) It defies the law of conservation of matter and many other laws of science.

3) It seems unlikely that something that powerful and intelligent could just exist.

4) There is evidence for the Big Bang, such as cosmic microwave background radiation. If the universe was created by an intelligent designer it seems unlikely it would have been done via a chaotic event like the big bang which resulted in a highly unstable and destructive universe where entire galaxies collide, stars explode, and black holes suck up everything in their path.

Sure, I'm not saying that your theory isn't plausible, I'm just saying that it is less likely because it is significantly more complex and defies every known law of science.

How did it bring itself into existence though?

You seemed to have missed my argument. It didn't bring itself into existence, it has always existed. If you think it's possible for an all-powerful being to have always existed, why can't something as simple as the basic elements always exist instead?

How does something that has an end have an eternal life span?

Matter doesn't have an end. As you said, "matter can't be created or destroyed", therefore it is eternal. It just changes forms. Everything in the universe from stars, to planets, to humans is made up of the same basic elements, so matter takes many forms. Before the big bang that matter was just in a different form. We have no way of knowing for sure what form it was in or what triggered it to change forms since we don't have a time machine to travel back to when it happened. It may be a question we never find an answer to.

The point I'm trying to make is that if something as complex as an all-powerful being can be eternal, then surely something as simple as the basic elements can be eternal, and that is more likely than a god because it is much simpler. Occam's Razor.

...something must create it

You're forgetting another possibility; that matter may have always existed. I don't think you'll find a reputable scientist on the planet that will tell you the universe came from nothing. It was just in a different form than it is now.

Give this some thought. The elements that the universe is made of are very simple. A spec of dust is far more complicated than these elements. So which is more likely to have always existed, a spec of dust or an all powerful being capable of creating an entire universe?