A Civil Religious Debate

If the universe were eternal, it would break down through entropy.

Not really, Mr. Saint. The 2nd law of Thermodynamics to which you are referring applies ONLY to closed systems. Which the Universe decidedly is not. And besides, that 2nd Law does NOT claim that closed systems will "break down" totally. No...it only posits that the rate of entropy will increase over time, if no new order or energy is infused into the system.

But as I said, the Universe is NOT closed, and with Supernovas exploding and also with Dark Energy, it seemingly is armed with additional power sources and order-giving parameters all the time.

It must have had a beginning as it is undergoing entropy, the entropy started at a point in time........and it wasn't the stupid singularity which was nothing but it exploded and tuned into you.

"Must" have had a beginning? Who says? It could be eternal. It is just that out limited minds are incapable of grasping the notion of eternal or or infinity, as we have zero experience with either term.

And the singularity was not "nothing." if it existed that is. It was an infinitesimally small but unimaginably power-laden point of energy and heat. So much energy that if it were the size of the Earth, an equivalent of one grain of sand on that Earth would be more power than has been unleashed by man in ALL the wars, bombs, cars rockets, machines, etc. over the history of the Earth.

The Bible answered this stupidity 2000 years ago.

Sorry, the bible is a collection of Hebrew mythology and stories and poetry and allegory that does not even ADDRESS the issue of Cosmology, let alone answer it. (I discount the book of Genesis, obviously, as I believe it to be a purely allegorical tale meant to remind its audience of the sanctity of the Sabbath while they were in Babylonian captivity and losing sight of their traditions.)

You're trying to equate the universe with God, the created thing with the creator. There is no comparison.

I am not trying to do that at all. Since I do not believe in god. But you are right in claiming no comparison. As the known Universe and its attendant Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics are quite real and provable, while your god is neither of those things.

SS

If you really want proof of Hell, just get down on your knees and say, "God, I think you are an idiot. You can't prove Hell is real". Pray that same prayer every day you have the ability and mental capacity to do it, and one day you will wake up in Hell

Actually, I have done this. For fun and to win a bet with an old Christian friend of mine back in Canada when I was playing hockey I verbally and loudly mocked and challenged god on a daily basis for a few weeks. Even going so far as to look up into the heavens and spread my arms and say "here I am you murderous tyrant child-killer Yahweh!" and then flip him the bird and sign off with a "Hail Satan!"

Just for kicks. And to freak out my bible thumper friend.

And yet...................................

here I stand. No hell in sight. No rebuke from your god. Not even a hint of a sign.

Oh....you will answer this by saying something like, "Just wait, Slappy, your day will come and after you die you will wake up in Hell."

Ahh....but this is so easy to say. I can say the same thing to you right now that you will wake-up in DragonLand for mocking the Fire Breathing Sagan-esque Invisible Dragon I keep in my garage.

Yeah...I can say this to you and have just as much proof of it being a valid threat as your admonition to me of hell is.

Right?

SS

But he is right, Mr. Saint.

The burden of proof rests upon you and your claim that a place called Hell even exists. And then further that we who do not believe in such a place are condemned to it.

Because all of us non-believers--atheists--DO exist. We live and think and reason and have all the inherent rights of life as do you. Nature ans science do not mention anything like a Hell. Or a heaven. Those are places only found in books like the bible that were written thousands of years ago by men. Men who had their own beliefs and agendas. Thus...we modern atheists are in no way beholden to them.

Such as I am not beholden to the author of The Book of Narnia, or Greek Mythology, or the Wizard of Oz.

You might as well claim to us that we have no right to exist outside of Oz. Or no right to climb Mount Olympus.

You are ascribing to unproven Hebrew Mythology and then telling us to prove it is correct. Sorry...we have no need to prove anything. Our existence is all we need. Science tells us how life is began and sustained and what will kill it. Biology shows us in real life and real observations and real experiments what science explains.

Nowhere in this equation is a need of a Hell. It simply does not fit and had no proof. No purpose. It is a literary invention being thrust upon us, who with our science and our very lives have no need for it. The only people who DO are those who believe in the Bronze Age literature from which it comes.

So....instead of asking us to prove we have the right to exist outside of Hell, we would in turn ask you to prove that such a place even exists.

Can you do it without your Bible?

I sincerely doubt this. But I would welcome your attempt and I will listen to what you have to offer.

Thanks.

SS

Welll I just read your link from Dr. Wanser.

While he presents some interessting stuff, I would hardly call it anything close to proof of a six-day Creation, or a Young Earth. He offers only conjecture. Some of his alleged "proof" that our dating systems are wrong is pretty comical, Saint.

Like when he said that just becasue he saw (anectdotal, btw) some sort of stalagtite-forms growing near his home in Alexandria, VA that those millions-year-old ones in Carlsbad had to be young too! He also admits early in the article that since turing religious as a youngster he has been intent on discrediting science dating methods so as to make their dates coincide with his beloved Genesis.

This is as good as admitting that he has cherry-picked and engaged in comfirmation bias. Like with the stalagtites.

He fell to the only tactic of arguing with our radiometric dating methods that the Creationists have: to try and discredit them by saying they are flawed. And by in turn HYPOTHOSIZING that the breakdown of certain elements were different back in biblical times than they are now! This idea (not even a hypothesis, really) has NO merit whatsoever. there is NO reason to think that element breakdown would be different. It's like surmising that the laws of physics at one time broke down and were different than they are now!

Gee! Maybe at one time gravity was weaker and we could all fly!

Wanser said this..........."Possible scenarios of intense neutrino and/or gamma ray fluxes due to various supernova and stellar disturbances (possibly during Noah’s Flood) may have contributed to the appearance of age when radioactive substances are examined by causing substantial radioactive decay in a very short time period, rather than over long periods of time at currently observable rates. Besides causing additional radioactive decay, such fluxes or increases in cosmic radiation could also have resulted in the rapid decrease in the human lifespan following the Flood, as recorded in Genesis. "

Please. What was the very first word there, Saint?

"Possible."

And then he goes on to NOT give ANY reason why those different scenarios in which known and studied elements should have once behaved differently than they do now.

He also only tries to discredit ONE form of radiometric dating.

I trust you do know that we have dozens of different forms? If you google "forms of radiometric dating" you will get a list that runs a few pages long! Many of them use checks and balances so as to measure different emissions in case a certain type is flawed.

SS

Oh really?

"there are plenty of scientific facts supporting a literal six-day Creation?"

Please.

I see this as a sign of disrespect to me and my knowledge on the topic of Biology and Evolution.

I cannot allow it, Saint.

So pray tell....share with us one of these alleged scientific facts!

And then watch as I totally destroy it.

And I will provide links if you like!

Go!

SS