A Civil Religious Debate

If Santa created the universe, then Santa would be God???

You will find that several people have reduced the definition of God to be just whatever created the universe.

Some use even less.

That does not explain a lot of morals

Yes, evolution is a good explanation of how our morals arose - groups could outperform individuals but required trust, cooperation, etc.

Evolution better explains our blend of cooperation and competition than a morality derived from an all-good, loving god.

100-digit password

If I throw a bucket of sand up in the air and then try to calculate the odds that each grain of sand would land exactly when and where it did - at what digit number would we conclude that I never threw the bucket?

Complexity is not a human opinion.

Complexity alone is subjective - relative complexity, like you are referring to, can be determined.

Couldn't God bring his children to heaven just because He loves them rather than as a reward?

ALL HAIL GODDESS Artemis - for the PROOF of her existence is mighty... ;)

Proof that Artemis exists (from the Iliad):

•05.051 ...Artemis taught the Trojan, Skamandrios (Scamander), how to strike down all wild things in the mountain forest

•05.053 ...Artemis of the showering arrows could not help Skamandrios (Scamander) when he was killed at Troy

•05.447 ...Artemis and Leto heal Aineias (Aeneas)

•06.205 ...Glaukos (Glaucus) related the story of how Artemis killed Laodameia, the daughter of Bellerophontes (Bellerophon)

•06.427 ...Artemis killed Andromakhe’s (Andromache) mother after Akhilleus (Achilles) had released her for ransom

•09.532 ...Artemis, of the golden chair, was angered at Oineus (Oeneus) for neglecting her in sacrifice and sent a boar to ravage the countryside

•09.536 ...Artemis, the daughter of great Zeus, was denied the first fruits by Oineus (Oeneus)

•09.538 ...Artemis is called ‘Lady of Arrows’

•09.547 ...Artemis caused great anger when the boar was dead and the hunters argued over possession of the boar’s head

•16.183 ...Hermes fell in love with Polymele when he saw her dancing in the choir of clamorous Artemis

•19.059 ...Akhilleus (Achilles) wishes that Artemis had killed Briseis instead of letting her become a point of dissention between himself and Agamemnon

•20.040 ...Apollon, Artemis, Aphrodite, Leto and Xanthos (Xanthus) fought on the side of the Trojans

•20.071 ...Artemis of the showering arrows stood against Hera when the Immortals entered the battle for Troy

•21.470 ...Apollon’s sister, Artemis, scolds him for not fighting Poseidon

•21.472 ...Artemis refers to Apollon as ‘striker from afar’

•21.480 ...Hera says that Artemis is shameless and bold for daring to stand against her in battle

•21.491 ...Hera grabs Artemis and knocks the bow and arrows from her shoulder; Artemis flees in tears

•21.505 ...Artemis, the maiden, bowed at the feet of Zeus

•21.509 ...Zeus speaks to Artemis and asks which of the gods has shamed her

•21.511 ...Artemis answers Zeus and says that Hera hit her during the fighting at Troy

•24.604 ...Akhilleus (Achilles) tells Priam about how Apollon had killed Niobe’s sons and Artemis had killed her daughters

Proof that Artemis exists (from the Odyssey):

•05.123 ...Kalypso (Calypso) reminds Hermes how chaste Artemis had killed Orion with her painless arrows because he was the lover of Eos (Dawn)

•06.102 ...Nausikaa was dancing like Artemis

•06.107 ...Artemis dances with the nymphs in the mountains

•06.151 ...Odysseus compares Nausikaa with the goddess Artemis in beauty and stature

•11.172 ...Odysseus encounters the ghost of his mother, Antikleia (Anticleia), in the Underworld and asks her if she died of illness or by the painless arrows of Artemis

•11.324 ...Artemis killed Ariadne on the island if Dia when Dionysus testified against her

•15.410 ...Apollon and Artemis come to the island of Syria and kill the aged painlessly with silver arrows

•15.478 ...When the swineherd, Eumaios (Eumaeus), was a child, he was kidnapped by Phoenicians with the help of his wicked nurse; Artemis killed her because of her betrayal

•17.037 ...Penelope was as lovely as Artemis or golden Aphrodite

•18.202 ...Penelope wishes that chaste Artemis would give her the peace of death

•19.054 ...Penelope was as lovely as Artemis or golden Aphrodite

•20.060 ...Penelope prays first to Artemis

•20.061 ...Penelope calls upon Artemis, daughter of Zeus, to pierce her heart and ease her pain

•20.071 ...Penelope thinks of the daughters of Pandareos (Pandareus) and how Hera gave them beauty, chaste Artemis gave them stature and Athene (Athena) gave them skill

•20.080 ...Penelope wishes that the gods would make her vanish or that lovely haired Artemis would kill her so she could be with Odysseus in the Underworld

http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/ bios/artemis.html

Proof that Artemis exists (from the Plato's Cratylus):

•Artemis is named from her healthy (artemes), well-ordered nature, and because of her love of virginity, perhaps because she is a proficient in virtue (arete), and perhaps also as hating intercourse of the sexes (ton aroton miseasa).

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/cratylus.html

Proof that Artemis exists (from The Theogony of Hesiod):

•(ll. 1-25) From the Heliconian Muses let us begin to sing, who hold the great and holy mount of Helicon, and dance on soft feet about the deep-blue spring and the altar of the almighty son of Cronos, and, when they have washed their tender bodies in Permessus or in the Horse's Spring or Olmeius, make their fair, lovely dances upon highest Helicon and move with vigorous feet. Thence they arise and go abroad by night, veiled in thick mist, and utter their song with lovely voice, praising Zeus the aegis- holder and queenly Hera of Argos who walks on golden sandals and the daughter of Zeus the aegis-holder bright-eyed Athene, and Phoebus Apollo, and Artemis who delights in arrows, and Poseidon the earth-holder who shakes the earth, and reverend Themis and quick-glancing (1) Aphrodite, and Hebe with the crown of gold, and fair Dione, Leto, Iapetus, and Cronos the crafty counsellor, Eos and great Helius and bright Selene, Earth too, and great Oceanus, and dark Night, and the holy race of all the other deathless ones that are for ever. And one day they taught Hesiod glorious song while he was shepherding his lambs under holy Helicon, and this word first the goddesses said to me -- the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:

•(ll. 918-920) And Leto was joined in love with Zeus who holds the aegis, and bare Apollo and Artemis delighting in arrows, children lovely above all the sons of Heaven.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm

Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN I. TO ZEUS):

•Thus, smith, we say, belong to Hephaestus; to Ares, warriors; to Artemis of the Tunic, huntsmen; to Phoebus they that know well the strains of the lyre.

Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN II. TO APOLLO):

•[60] Artemis hunted and brought continually the heads of Cynthian goats and Phoebus plaited an altar.

Proof that Artemis exists (from the Callimachus - HYMN III. TO ARTEMIS):

•[1] Artemis we hymn – no light thing is it for singers to forget her – whose study is the bow and the shooting of hares and the spacious dance and sport upon the mountains;

• And give to me all mountains; and for city, assign me any, even whatsoever thou wilt: for seldom is it that Artemis goes down to the town.

•[28] ... Three times ten cities and towers more than one will I vouchsafe thee – three times ten cities that shall not know to glorify any other god but to glorify the only and be called of Artemis And thou shalt be Watcher over Streets and harbours.

•[98] ... And thou wert suddenly amazed and sadist to thine own heart: “This would be a first capture worthy of Artemis.”

•[109] Artemis, Lady of Maidenhood, Slayer of Tityus, golden were thine arms and golden thy belt, and a golden car didst thou yoke, and golden bridles, goddess, didst thou put on thy deer.

•[233] For thee surely Proetus established two shrines, one of Artemis of Maidenhood for that thou dist gather for him his maiden daughters, when they were wandering over the Azanian hills; the other he founded in Lusa to Artemis the Gentle, because thou tookest from his daughters the spirit of wildness.

•[258] O Lady of Munychia, Watcher of Harbours, hail, Lady of Pherae! Let none disparage Artemis.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/CallimachusHymns1.html#a36

Proof that Artemis exists (from Callimachus - HYMN IV. TO DELOS):

•[228] So she spake and seated her beside the golden throne, even as a hunting hound of Artemis, which, when it hath ceased from the swift chase, sitteth by her feet, and its ears are erect, ever ready to receive the call of the goddess.

Proof that Artemis exists (from the Callimachus - HYMN V. ON THE BATH OF PALLAS):

•[93] ... And yet he shall be companion of the chase to great Artemis.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/CallimachusHymns2.html

Proof that Artemis exists (from Sophocles - Electra):

•Ask the huntress Artemis what sin she punished when she stayed the frequent winds at Aulis; or I will tell thee; for we may not learn from her.

•Now by our lady Artemis, thou shalt not fail to pay for this boldness, so soon as Aegisthus returns.

•Nay, by ever-virgin Artemis, I will never stoop to fear women, stay-at-homes, vain burdens of the ground!

http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/electra.html

Proof that Artemis exists (from The History of Herodotus - Book II):

•The Bubastis of the Egyptians is the same as the Artemis (Diana) of the Greeks.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.mb.txt

Proof that Artemis exists (from PAUSANIAS - i):

•[1.1.4] The Athenians have also another harbor, at Munychia, with a temple of Artemis of Munychia, and yet another at Phalerum, as I have already stated, and near it is a sanctuary of Demeter.

•[1.14.5] ... This is the victory of which I am of opinion the Athenians were proudest; while Aeschylus, who had won such renown for his poetry and for his share in the naval battles before Artemisium and at Salamis, recorded at the prospect of death nothing else, and merely wrote his name, his father's name, and the name of his city, and added that he had witnesses to his valor in the grove at Marathon and in the Persians who landed there.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias1A.html

•[1.19.6] Across the Ilisus is a district called Agrae and a temple of Artemis Agrotera (the Huntress). They say that Artemis first hunted here when she came from Delos, and for this reason the statue carries a bow.

•[1.21.3] ... This also has a tripod over it, wherein are Apollo and Artemis slaying the children of Niobe.

•[1.23.7] I remember looking at other things also on the Athenian Acropolis, a bronze boy holding the sprinkler, by Lycius son of Myron, and Myron's Perseus after beheading Medusa. There is also a sanctuary of Brauronian Artemis; the image is the work of Praxiteles, but the goddess derives her name from the parish of Brauron. The old wooden image is in Brauron, the Tauric Artemis as she is called.

•[1.26.4] Near the statue of Olympiodorus stands a bronze image of Artemis surnamed Leucophryne, dedicated by the sons of Themistocles; for the Magnesians, whose city the King had given him to rule, hold Artemis Leucophryne in honor.

•[1.29.2] ... As you go down to it you come to a precinct of Artemis, and wooden images of Ariste (Best) and Calliste (Fairest). In my opinion, which is supported by the poems of Pamphos, these are surnames of Artemis.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias1B.html

•[1.31.1] ... At Alimus is a sanctuary of Demeter Lawgiver and of the Maid, and at Zoster (Girdle) on the coast is an altar to Athena, as well as to Apollo, to Artemis and to Leto.

•[1.31.4] Such is the legend. Phlya and Myrrhinus have altars of Apollo Dionysodotus, Artemis Light-bearer, Dionysus Flower-god, the Ismenian nymphs and Earth, whom they name the Great goddess;

•[1.31.5] Athmonia worships Artemis Amarysia.

•[1.33.1] XXXIII. At some distance from Marathon is Brauron, where, according to the legend, Iphigenia, the daughter of Agamemnon, landed with the image of Artemis when she fled from the Tauri; leaving the image there she came to Athens also and afterwards to Argos. There is indeed an old wooden image of Artemis here, but who in my opinion have the one taken from the foreigners I will set forth in another place.

•[1.36.1] XXXVI. But I will return to my subject. In Salamis is a sanctuary of Artemis, and also a trophy erected in honor of the victory which Themistocles the son of Neocles won for the Greeks.

•[1.38.6] The Eleusinians have a temple of Triptolemus, of Artemis of the Portal, and of Poseidon Father, and a well called Callichorum (Lovely dance), where first the women of the Eleusinians danced and sang in praise of the goddess.

•[1.40.2] Not far from this fountain is an ancient sanctuary, and in our day likenesses stand in it of Roman emperors, and a bronze image is there of Artemis surnamed Saviour. is a story that a detachment of the army of Mardonius, having over run Megaris, wished to return to Mardonius at Thebes, but that by the will of Artemis night came on them as they marched, and missing their way they turned into the hilly region.

•[1.40.3] ... For this reason they had an image made of Artemis Saviour. Here are also images of the gods named the Twelve, said to be the work of Praxiteles. But the image of Artemis herself was made by Strongylion.

•[1.41.3] Not far from the tomb of Hyllus is a temple of Isis, and beside it one of Apollo and of Artemis.

• ...Alcathous therefore, son of Pelops, attacked the beast and overcame it, and when he came to the throne he built this sanctuary, surnaming Artemis Agrotera (Huntress) and Apollo Agraeus (Hunter).

•[1.41.6] ...Let so much suffice for Alcathous and for the lion, whether it was on Cithaeron or elsewhere that the killing took place that caused him to make a temple to Artemis Agrotera and Apollo Agraeus.

•[1.43.1] ... Now I have heard another account of Iphigenia that is given by Arcadians and I know that Hesiod, in his poem A Catalogue of Women, says that Iphigenia did not die, but by the will of Artemis is Hecate.

• ... A sanctuary of Artemis was made by Agamemnon when he came to persuade Calchas, who dwelt in Megara, to accompany him to Troy.

•[1.44.2] In it is a noteworthy Apollo, Artemis also, and Leto, and other statues, made by Praxiteles.

•[1.44.4] In Pagae a noteworthy relic is a bronze image of Artemis surnamed Saviour, in size equal to that at Megara and exactly like it in shape.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias1C.html

Proof that Artemis exists (from PAUSANIAS - vii):

•[7.2.6] ... The sanctuary of Apollo at Didymi, and his oracle, are earlier than the immigration of the Ionians, while the cult of Ephesian Artemis is far more ancient still than their coming.

•[7.6.6] ... A likeness of this Adrastus in bronze was dedicated in front of the sanctuary of Persian Artemis by the Lydians, who wrote an inscription to the effect that Adrastus died fighting for the Greeks against Leonnatus.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias7A.html

•[7.18.8] On the acropolis of Patrae is a sanctuary of Artemis Laphria.

•[7.18.9] ... It is said that the goddess was surnamed Laphria after a man of Phocis, because the ancient image of Artemis was set up at Calydon by Laphrius, the son of Castalius, the son of Delphus.

•[7.18.10] Others say that the wrath of Artemis against Oeneus weighed as time went on more lightly (elaphroteron) on the Calydonians, and they believe that this was why the goddess received her surname.

•[7.18.11] Every year too the people of Patrae celebrate the festival Laphria in honor of their Artemis, and at it they employ a method of sacrifice peculiar to the place.

•[7.18.12] The festival begins with a most splendid procession in honor of Artemis, and the maiden officiating as priestess rides last in the procession upon a car yoked to deer.

•[7.19.1] The Ionians who lived in Aroe, Antheia and Mesatis had in common a precinct and a temple of Artemis surnamed Triclaria, and in her honor the Ionians used to celebrate every year a festival and an all-night vigil.

•[7.19.3] The history of Melanippus, like that of many others, proved that love is apt both to break the laws of men and to desecrate the worship of the gods, seeing that this pair had their fill of the passion of love in the sanctuary of Artemis.

• ... Forthwith the wrath of Artemis began to destroy the inhabitants; the earth yielded no harvest, and strange diseases occurred of an unusually fatal character.

• ... The oracle ordered that they themselves should be sacrificed to Artemis, and that every year a sacrifice should be made to the goddess of the fairest youth and the fairest maiden.

•[7.19.6] The sacrifice to Artemis of human beings is said to have ceased in this way.

•[7.20.1] It was in this way that they used to array of old those whom they led to be sacrificed to Artemis.

•[7.20.7] ... Opposite the marketplace by this exit is a precinct and temple of Artemis, the Lady of the Lake.

•[7.24.1] XXIV. By the market-place at Aegium is a temple shared by Apollo and Artemis in common; and in the market-place there is a sanctuary of Artemis, who is represented in the act of shooting an arrow, and also the grave of Talthybius the herald.

•[7.26.3] The Hyperesians gave their city its present name of Aegeira from the goats (aiges), and where the most beautiful goat, which led the others, crouched, they built a sanctuary of Artemis the Huntress, believing that the trick against the Sicyonians was an inspiration of Artemis.

•[7.26.5] There is also a temple of Artemis, with an image of the modern style of workmanship.

•[7.26.11] ... There are sanctuaries of Dionysus and of Artemis.

•[7.27.3] Above the temple of Athena is a grove, surrounded by a wall, of Artemis surnamed Saviour, by whom they swear their most solemn oaths.

•[7.27.4] Near the sanctuary of Apollo is a temple of Artemis, the goddess being represented in the attitude of shooting.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias7B.html

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