At the very least as an idea, god exists. Then of course there is my somewhat famous "ontological argument from worship" that has yet to be seriously refuted.

You're playing with words.

Guilty as charged

"Is what people say about God true?" is the same question as "Does God exist?".

This is not true. There is not a universally accepted definition of god. To illustrate this, I'd pose the question to you: Does god exist as described by pantheists?

When people ask that question they're not talking about whether God exists as a concept.

This is because we can all agree that "god exists, at least as a concept". Accepting this premise is necessary to any logical discussion about god. The other premise that must be accepted is that "truths can be known about god". Without acceptance of these two premises, the term god can only be used in an illogical manner.

They're talking about whether he exists as a God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority.

I'm not viewing god in a manner orthodox enough for you eh?

The question of whether or not god exists is equally important as it directly effects the importance of understanding god better.

If we accept that god exists at least as a concept then we have moved beyond asking if god exists and may now logically progress to questions about god's characteristic qualities. You cannot logically discuss the qualities of something assumed to not exist.

If god only exists conceptually, then it doesn't really matter, as god could be anything you want it to be, being a concept and all.

Ideas have consequences, and thinking of god strictly as an ideological construct, this ideological construct matters alot because it affects the way us humans interact with each other. If god did not exist, god would not have major sociological implications.

What exactly do you mean here? I agree with that statement but for different reasons.

That's strikes me as odd. You agree with the statement for reasons different than what I have yet to explain to your satisfaction. ie you don't know exactly what I meant, but you know enough to know that you agree for different reasons. I'll be happy to discuss effects of god after you admit god exists. Start a new debate and invite me.

Nobody is really arguing god doesn't exist as much as they are arguing that there is no reason to think so.

If we do not first accept the premise that: "truths can be known about god", then any statement or question posed with the word god as the subject remains meaningless.

If we are talking about reason to think something exists, it makes significantly more sense to argue against the idea of a god but not the universe.

really? Why do you believe in "The Universe" instead of "The Multiverses" ?

There is significantly more reason to acknowledge the universe exists then god.'

Pantheists understand the universe as god, Do you think they believe this for "No reason"?

A better question is..."Is what people say about god true?". Because of course god exists, at the very least conceptually. Another better question is..."Is god a matter of serious concern to us?" to which any honest thinking person who wasn't raised to be ignorant of history must answer yes. Attempting to argue that god does not exist is as pointless as arguing about whether or not there is a universe. The question is not "does the universe exist?", it is "how can we improve our understanding of the universe?"

God may or may not be bullshit, but that has nothing to do with whether or not this debate's opening statement is true or false.

X) An individual's or group's absolutist attitudes

(Inspired by a post from Thewayitis)

X) the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind.

X) Habitually and articulately expressed values and beliefs applied as a comprehensive philosophy or way of life.

X) An individual or groups particular brand of intolerance.

I like that one. But it's not worded like a definition. Will you do that, or would you like me to?

No I mean like brushing my teeth itself is a religion by that definition. Not a part of, the entirety. My bathroom is my church. My dentist is my priest. The toothbrush, my god; the floss, his choir of heavenly spirits. Cavities and gum disease are the Devil and Hell. I would live by the code of dental hygiene, and better myself for it.

Never mind that it seems like you are referring to YOUR PROPOSED DEFINITION of religion as opposed to the one presented here, because I get the feeling that you're becoming less and less metaphorically challenged as a result.

In light of your comment, I think I made an improvement to the definition. What do you think?

X) Habitually and articulately expressed values and beliefs applied as a comprehensive philosophy or way of life. ?

This all goes back to me thinking you're deliberately too vague so you can draw parallels where none exist

You say that I aim to draw parallels (that don't exist) between religion and what? Perhaps truthfully, I am emphasizing parallels that do exist.

I've banged my head bloody against that wall, already.

I'm flattered

I'm posting here cause it's a new debate, even though I think we'll end up at the same old standstill. =D

Heaven forbid! :P

Also, did our discussion inspire this debate?

Yes, though I have long thought that religion was a poorly defined term.

Was testing to see if linking to a specific argument worked and :(

So then does this fit your idea of religion nicely?

X) A type of philosophy that relies on superstitious mumbo-jumbo

(inspired by ChadOnSunday's Post)

Since I can't understand how one would service and worship the supernatural I can't accept this one.

This definition makes use of circular logic so I reject it on that basis

There are atheistic religions, so this is not definitive of religion, only certain popular variants.

I would reject this definition because I think it's not a good idea to insist that supernaturalism is definitive of religion. I think there can be, and are, religions that eschew supernaturalist concepts.

The definition allows for individualized expression sure. You practice Joe_Cavalryism ;)

It would be part of the cleanliness related portions of your religion....sure.

X) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

X) the service and worship of God or the supernatural .

X) a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

X) Conviction in supernatural realities relevant to human well being