LizziexLaura's Waterfall
Something had to be before the big bang though right? Or else that means it was created.
What makes me think that it has an end? Well we have the big rip theory and the big crunch theory. We have the theory where things continue but if all scientific laws are still present everything freezes. Also when you say pull it back together again that is the infinite big bang theory which relates with the big crunch theory. Like I said if all laws are present it cant happen.
There is no way to know what form the matter took previous to the big bang. I could have been something we can't even begin to imagine.
Something you cant imagine? Like an eternal being or God?
The big bang may have been a one time event that was triggered by some strange event in an unknown dimension. It's all a big mystery, and will most likely stay that way. All I know is that if something had to exist eternally I think it's far more likely that something simple like matter did than a powerful intelligent being.
What makes matter non-complex? What makes a God non-simple?
The fact that earth was made by collisions is what leads me to believe that it is not intelligently designed. It seems like a strange and incredibly inefficient way to create something. If I were creating a universe I would just make Earth appear fully intact.
Make the earth fully intact? Like God did? I find it a bit funny that your perfect vision of the universe is what God supposedly did. Collisions a weird way? We will never know the purpose will we?
Can I see some proof of your time theory? Because I am not understanding it. Can you time something that has no beginning and has no end?
Being eternal doesn't mean time doesn't affect you, it just means you've been around forever, which I admit is a hard concept to grasp and gives me a headache just thinking about it. The concept of eternity is mind boggling.
And if this gives you a headache then according to your reasoning intelligent design will be impossible to understand.
Oops this says thiesm. Wow I thought it said deism this whole time. Wow I feel stupid. I still like debating against my beliefs so I shall continue to dabate with you to learn more logic from an athiest. Now how can matter eternally exist if the big bang spreads it around and it has an end? If not an infinite lineage of big bangs yet one occured how does matter eternally exist? Dont worry lots of people just think it will supernova. I just hear it all too often. Who knows? Maybe there is a purpose. We dont know yet. Highly doubt we will ever know. Also the way you describe a better universe is odd. If things didnt collide with each other then earth wouldnt exist. Earth was made by collisions. Neatly in place in perfect harmony? How so? Woupd you bend the laws of physics and all the astronomical properties that you know of now? The universe you are imagining is odd. Our universe is currently where it is now by a super massive black hole. With all the fluff in your perfect universe life would not exist. Random events from a fine tuned universe. I thought this was implied already. Why are we plagued by natural disasters? Because that is how things work in the universe. Just because humans cant live doesnt mean that the universe is not fine tuned. Everything that goes on is simply amazing and mind blowing. From the biggest stars to stars that burn at 80 degrees farhenhiet to pulsars (which are just neutron stars) to the creation of life. How can you be affected by time if you started the clock? Why would you be frozen? I understand the sequence of events but even the bible had a semi right idea (God said 1 day to him is of a thousand years to man) and if you are not affected by time you are not bound by any of its effects. You are eternal. You can still do what ever. In order to be eternal time cannot affect you.
The universe would lose energy each time wouldnt it? Also wouldnt it overheat?
Ah I have seen that quote before too. I still am a bit puzzled. So how do we have energy at all now?
What?????? Zero energy? I am in astronomy and I have heard this once. I still dont understand it.
Well tell me. If our universe came from the big bang and an infinite line of big bangs is impossible and our universe has an end then how is it eternal?
I was quoting the law of thermodynamics. I am just playing some devil's advocate.
Matter came from the big bang. How in the world does it exist if an infinite lineage of big bangs cannot happen? You said there is proof of the big bang so where does your situation fit? Also the sun cannot supernova and it is sort of a petpeeve when people say that. It will turn into a red giant and exahale all its gas and become a white dwarf. It doesnt have enough msss to supernova. Also by your definition of perfect gravity would not be possible. Object with high mass would have no pull on others. A black hole forms from a collapsed star due to its gravity. A supernova is the start of new life for other stars. Earths gravity pulls those meteors. So what are you trying to say? The universe is fine tuned dispite your definition. Your definition of perfection would not support life. Everything occurs by a chain of random events and a smidge of luck. We are lucky to still be alive. We are lucky oxygen and hydrogen elements were brought to this planet by meteors colliding with earth which you claim to be catastrophic. Those events brought life. If time isnt affecting you you are frozen? Who said that? If time isnt affecting you then you are eternal. You arent bound by space or time and we cannot fathom it because we are bound. Our minds are limited. I already know of other planets and there possibility but they have to be lucky enough to have elements that support life. Other factors play in besides distance. Also fine tuning is on a universal basis. Not a "support life" basis. You are only seeing this from a human perspective. Take this on a grand scale. We are lucky. I know the debate is called "Does God exist?" but the side is labeled "deism".
It cant exist eternally. It has a beginninh which came from the big bang and infinite big bangs cant occur.
Why are you talking about the Christian God? Thats not even what I am arguing about.
God Ben I have no clue what I am talking about. I am just trying to learn as much as I can. I lost my initail point. I am arguing for the opposite side. Quite hard. Arguing for intelligent design is hard. I have no idea how to perfectly argue for it.
I dont understand your first statement. This just means that a being exists outside of spacetime. Also I am not arguing for God but an intelligent designer. Being eternal? We dont know yet. I highly doubt we will break through our universal barrier. The paradox you stated stipl doesnt make an absolute judgement that makes an eternal being impossible.
I am not talking about God. I am talking about an intelligent designer. Not God. So I cant really answer your first paragraph because I am not talking about God. Also if the big bang is not the beginning what is? Also you say nothing can happen without time but if you are eternal time is nothing. Time isn't affecting you. I am aware that the frequency of events doesn't mean it isn't chaotic but this isn't chaos. These things are just deadly and catastrophic to us. On a universal scale things will appear to be different. Order in the universe? How is it not ordered? What is order in the universe? A straight line of stars? Multiple earths? Our planet got lucky and had the perfect distance from a star and the perfect elements to support life which happened from these "chaotic" events. Chaos is only in the human mind. Fine tuning? Are you confused on fine tuning? Tell me with earth and its ability to support life is that not fine tuned? Are stars not fine tuned? Are planets not fine tuned? Are black holes not fine tuned? How do you declare something not fine tuned yet this fine tuned universe made life possible on earth? Simply because you cannot find a reason for its existence or cant find anything to support it doesn't mean that people cant still believe in it. Also my example were examples of the things that boggle scientists which should be easy to identify by my diction amid syntax. Fine tuning doesn't imply what you are stating. It doesn't have to have a goal. It is simply fine tuned. Our placement from the sun and our abundance of elements can be seen as fine tuned. Just because it isn't livable doesn't mean it is not fine tuned. I dint think you are seeing this on a large universal scale.
A video was posted a while ago when he was interviewed about his book. Even he knew that you cannot proven an intelligent designer exists or not.I have read his book. If you dont know perfection how do you know imperfection? If you have shown that you dont know perfection how can you claim the universe is imperfect?
You quoted Richard Dawkins but he believes in intelligent design. How do you know what perfection is? Describe a universe that is perfect. This intelligent designer does not have to follow what we think is perfect. Nobody can literally discribe a perfect universe.
The thing is that on a universal scale these things are considered to be miniscule. Things happen to planets that we are glad dont happen to us. I know earth life isnt perfect but if it was what would it even look like?
Like I said. This being can exist outside of our spacetime and it is not applicable to our laws. You cant create an eternal being. Thats impossible but you say my theory contradicts. Tell me if matter cannot be created or destroyed but you are talking about the big bang that is a contradiction. The big bang had a beggining so how would things be there before the big bang? Also you cant have infinite big bangs. That would be an overload of heat. So by your logic something as silly as an eternal being cannot be proven or disproven by science but with science I can lean the argument in my favor by simply stating that:
1) If we have evidence of a big bang then it had a beggining and thus cannot be eternal and also makes you contradict your entire theory.
2) This being cannot be limited by our laws. It would be limited by time in that sense and thus cannot be an eternal being. You must be Alpha and Omega.
3) This isnt chaos. This is just stuff that isnt normal for us. Stars explode. Black holes form. Dark matter is present. Anti matter could exist. I mean it isnt chaos. These things happen all over the universe on a daily basis.
3) True, there is absolutely no reason to believe in such a being. Doesnt mean people vant explore it and believe it is there.
4) I cannot contradict myself if my being is not limited by our spacetime and has the ability to create these things. If the being is not limited by our laws or spacetime then it could practically exist and we have no ways of proving it or disproving it.
5) This is a continuation on the chaos bit. This universe is extremely fine tuned and some things still boggle scientists like stars that burn at room temperature or stars the size of jupiter or the theoretical things like nemesis and nibiru. They are all possible. Nibiru and nemesis have been shown to not exist but scientists agree that it is 100% possible for them to exist. This is a fine tuned universe. The way things occur is mind blowing.
Your number three still leaves the question as to what created those initial things? They cannot just always exist. They must have been created by something. Also I looked at your bottom problems. Why can an intelligent designer not make the big bang? Why not? Why cant it be conscious? The thing is that just because you didnt or currently dont see it doesnt mean it is there or isnt happening. Those laws are limited to what we can observe in our own space time which I am sure will be our limit for awhile. All I am seeing is "unlikely" because we havent seen it or dont really have a reason to even bother looking for it. If matter cannot be created or destroyed then I think that something must put it there. I dont think we even have the capability to fathom it.
Ehh I wouldnt say less likely because we cant measure its probability since science, so far, cannot even peer into it. We have discovered things that make zero sense. We may never know. Cant really put a probability stat on it. The theory of lots of things are conplex and become easy when they can be explained. So it a true sense it is just lik the theories produced back then during Platos time or the time of colonial America.
