I do not believe anyone can be an atheist because no one can prove that God does not exist. To do so someone would need all the knowledge in the universe. This is impossible. The best they can be.......is an agnostic, who doubts, is skeptical but does not know for sure.

An atheist says.......there is no God.....anything weaker and they are agnostic.

First of all everything we know about Christ is from the scriptures. There are secular sources that talk of him and that verify his existence....but the information that tells us about who he is and what he is all about come from the Bible. If you are a Christian then...you must believe that the Bible is the inerhent Word of God, the Truth. Otherwise you could base your faith on nothing but your own idea of what its all about. If you deny the scriptures then you deny the God of Abraham.

The Bible tells us things about Christ. So to be a Christian you have to believe them.

If you read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 it pretty much sums it up.

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Jesus came for the lost that no one should perish. But he was clear what you had to do to be saved...Christ said, I am the Way the Truth and the Life...no one comes to the Father but through Me.

So there are not many roads to heaven......only one. Jesus is that road the bridge to the Father. Unless you accept Him, what He did...and unless you repent and ask Him to come into your heart....you die in your sins. God loved us so much that Jesus was the sacrifice to make this all happen. He paid the penalty for our sin.

Well of course you will ditch any website I might give that would define an atheist differernt from your definition. They are atheists that aren't atheists right? LOL

Whats funny is your denial of an atheistic community with a membership.

And I went on about people who claim they are Christian who are not really Christian based on the scriptures.

And this goes to show that atheism as a worldview is similar to that of Christianity as a worldview. People believe, they meet, they spread their faith. You hate religionists so much that you don't want the term associated with anything that you would do.

The Holy Spirit came upon me when I accepted Christ.

I said, "But one thing I have learned. I am NOT responsible for anyone elses salvation."

You said, "In any way? are you sure? Did god tell you that?"

I said, "they watch my every word and action however."

You said, "Being looked to as an example is a responsibility that isn't comforting. I can speak from experience too.:) my sympathies."

I am not responsible for someones salvation. Everyone is responsible for their own. I am commanded to spread the Word in love..that is what the Great Commission says in the scriptures. I can't force someone to accept Christ. And someone can say they have accepted Him and not really mean it. God knows who accepts with the heart. I have nothing to do with this action.

I am proud to have them look at my actions to see if they are genuine. They must align with Gods Word.....If I went to an R-rated movie, went to a strip bar etc..this would not be living how God wants me to live. If my mouth is filthy and I take the Lords name in vain....if a gossip.....all do not show mature Christian actions. I have done several things they have questioned me on. I am glad...they are watching and hopefully they will want the joy I have in my heart for God one day.

They have seen me fail and fall down...they see my faith however and how I treat people, what I do with my money. I am not perfect but I usually put words into action.

Well scripturally if you don't accept Christ, who He said He was...then you reject who Christ is. He was more than a human being.

Darnit I just wrote a long post and it got lost......darnitall.....

When I type into the box........it moves up and down.....and I lose the point where I ended. Would you know what is wrong?

Can you really compare Buddah to Christ? Martin Luther King to Christ? Buddah ran off and left his family for himself and his selfish goals. And if you read Kings biography he was certainly a wonderful man...but not perfect.

Well people of intellect use emotion so I am not alone. We are born...with emotions. People might not outwardly cry...but show it in another way. You can't stop emotion from happening. It is sad that you think they are a weakness.

I am a crier....I cry when I am happy and sad. I am to emotional I will admit that...but it is only because I love hard. The day that dang Casey Anthony verdict came down...I cried off and on all day long. I am giving up following trials and reality television. LOL

I accept your apology. I have never done drugs...dont smoke or drink...ok I smoked pot in college a few times...but it made me sleepy and I was a night owl...and was at the bar dancing to....yes disco most nights of the week. LOL Talk about a fun time in my life....wow. So I dont know what that drug addiction thing feels like. But I have seen others suffer from it. I love Christ....and well...maybe He is a drug in a way...because I feel happy and content like nothing else can make me feel. I just love Him, I can't help it. If you knew my testimony you would know why. I was suicidal at one point of my life over something I had done....and He came over me and changed me. I can't explain it. If you want to know more...can elaborate...but don't want to bore other debaters who would not understand.

Well listen to you.....see you do show emotion. I am so sorry for your loss. Gee whiz....It is so hard to lose someone who has had such a profound influence on you. Don't know what to say other than remember her...and smile. She would not want you to suffer missing her. Its ok to cry.....I think its soothing and healthy. You can't hold it in. I know this sounds stupid..but write her a letter. I do that when I miss my mom and dad. You know you don't have to feel anything when you meet this other woman. Certainly do not feel guilty...for heavens sake. It is not her fault....and maybe she can help you heal. She should understand what you are going through and if she doesnt then send her on her way. No one should deprive you of your love for something. You know rays of sunshine can appear even during a storm remember that. Being nervous is GOOD....and so is excitment. These are good human emotions. I have been married thirty years to the same man....the poor guy. LOL And i remember the pit in my stomach, that excitement when we first dated. Its different today...but memories are great arent they?

I have two dogs and a cat....and she thinks she is a dog and even sleeps with them. I rub her as well...and she barks....LOL No not really but I adore her.

Well you have never believed in God.....ok. But never close yourself off to the possibility. Things happen and people change. At least be a skeptic....with questions...at least keep seeking the truth. And who know maybe one day, you will believe in God, who knows. I was an evil horrible person at one time....I had an abortion, I killed my unborn child. Lets not get into that...this is not that debate.....its how I feel and well...its how I felt at the time. I am glad you find comfort with friends and family...everyone needs that...to live a happy life. And if I painted a picture of all athiests that are all mean...I did not mean to. Please accept my apology, as I said, I get pretty excited over topics. As I said many in my family are not beleivers and I love them.

I dont think you can find truth without emotion. It is part of all human beings. dont debate your new girl this soon.......LOL

You have not been harsh with me...no worse than I have dished out...dont worry about it. This is a debate site is it not?

If I have not answered your posts its because I cant find them. I am having a hard time...(please be nice...I am not to computer literate....) keeping up and finding things. Dont understand the points and how to find what I just post. I am slow to learn so be patient. I didnt even know I could select enemies....and have friends. I noticed it because two people on here picked me as a enemy. LOL How juvenile......

Thanks for the honesty. We can agree to disagree.....and you have been very nice...which I appreciate.

Well it is logical for me. You do tolerate other opinions don't you? Or are you an intolerant atheist?

It is illogical to someone who does not believe it. The BBang is illogical for me. You probably think something all of a sudden came from nothing. Now how logical is that?

You know, this is why someone started a thread and called atheists mean people. You mock and you joke...and you slam...why?. You are not interested in debating, yours is a deep seated hatred for people who believe in god. You look down on beleivers....you think they are illogical and irrational people. Well I am comfortable knowing that I am with the majority who believe in God. You on the other hand are in the minority. You are doing your best to live without God.

You say you criticize without condemning.......not so. Your tone speaks volumes. You are very judgemental.

How do I know God has my back? For you this could only be head knowledge, so you could never ever understand where I am coming from. You need heart knowledge to be able to understand. You are not a beleiver and the Holy Spirit is not in you. You see through a different lense than I do.

You said, "If you claim to trust god, you must first trust that you are perceiving god correctly. Sorry that's self trust. Do you think it's a good idea for a person to strongly doubt their ability to determine the ultimate source of messages and commands they hear? I do. People have been commanded to do some pretty evil things by beings they thought were almighty."

I do trust my ability to interpret the scriptures. Jesus said LOVE THY ENEMY. That eliminates all forms of violence, except self defense or defending the righteous. He said love........is the second greatest commandment. If you love...you do not hate. That means if a man loves his wife and a wife loves her husband...there is no infidelity, no abuse of any kind. That means children love and respect authority. That means we do not steal, lie, covet what is not ours.....etc. Anything less that this is not commanded by Christ. He is the model of perfectness and who believers should mirror their life after. So that means we stand up and accept responsiblities for our own actions...that we support widows, children who have no homes. That means we give selflessly to the poor, and the hungry.

If people do evil things they do it by their own free will. Christ would never tell someone to hurt a person.

Ok to explain about Jesus the Truth.

Jesus stated plainly that He had come into the world to testify to the truth. (John 18:37) So what is truth? God is the ultimate source of Truth. (Colossians 2:2-3)

So in our discussion we are going head to head because we believe the complete opposite of something, in this case the truth. The truth claims of God in direct opposition to what I see are the lies of the world. IMO truth is what is really real and our actions reflect what we believe to be really real. Our worldviews are polls apart so lies a cosmic battle. The truth claims that paint a picture of my reality really the framework from which I view reality, how I make sense of life and the world are in direct opposition to yours.

I think many people reject the idea of a sovereign God because they want to control their own destiny. That is why they are opposed to such basic social institutions as marriage, family and especially church. They reject the order that bears the imprint of God.

Have I smelled any miracles? And your point is what? Another slam I would suppose.

I mean on one hand you seem so nice...really, then you come back with slams.....what gives?

I respect and don't think ill of you because you reject Christ. Many of my family members reject the Word and I love them. My husband is not a believer and my kids don't at the moment put their faith first. They say they are believers...(daughter is 29, married son is 26) but they certainly are not walking right. I never have ever pressured them. They grew up going to church...so they know what the truth is. But one thing I have learned. I am NOT responsible for anyone elses salvation. So if my faith in Christ ends up being right, which I believe it is....they will suffer I won't. Each one of us are responsible for our own beliefs. I continue however living a life reflecting Christ although I am certainly not perfect and my flaws are revealed quite often to my family and friends...they watch my every word and action however.

My father in law who was born Jewish says he was an atheist and lived that way. So I have lived intimately with people who do not share my belief system. I will say this then move on.......you seem defensive a bit...and so do they when the subject of religion comes up.

If I have come across in a mean way I apologize. I do not think poorly of people who reject God...but I do feel sorry for them....I have to be honest. And my heart aches knowing that if my loved ones do not change...they will suffer for all eternity. That hurts me because I love so much....and want everyone to feel what I feel. I know you probably think this is stupid...but I am being honest.

A strong atheist....a not so strong atheist....a semi strong atheist........a semi weak atheist.........an almost weak atheist.......an almost agnostic athiest.......a bold atheist.......

I mean come on....quit making excuses. You go to most websites and the definition they use is a person who says there is no God. Not I don't know, I highly doubt, not I dont think so....

An atheist says.......there is no god. An agnostic says, I do not know. They take totally different stances.

This from American Atheists....who do not talk about weak, strong atheists.

They say...........

What is Atheism?

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own."

Here is another huge organization and how they define atheism. Atheist Alliance International says,

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

http://www.atheistalliance.org/atheism

These are huge organizations that meet get together like people of faith do. They are examples of why our government said that atheism is a religion.

Of course I am emotional about Christ. He saved me. I make no bones that I am not emotional about this. But like Strobel did when he wrote the book, A Case for Christ..I believe that it is not only by faith...but the facts as I have witnessed in my life concerning this. I am not blind...and I read and weigh the evidence. I do not accept the theory of the BB, I do not believe in evolution, that I came from an ape. I believe history that Christ lived and died. Even secular writers wrote about His life. So for me it is not all emotional. Do you have a problem with emotions? I think you are very mean spirited when you say I use my faith, religion belief in Christ like a drug user takes drugs. I could also slam your belief, or should I say lack of belief in god....but I am not. So think whatever you want about me...You show why people have harsh feelings about pagans. Many are not nice and they simply look down on people who think different than they do. Yous ay my faith is blinding....I say your lack of compassion...makes you cold and robot like. You put yourself up on a pedestal....you think you are better than any believer. You are conceited arent you? You bash me because I cant prove anything......but you can't either. What is rational to think about creation? Is the BB rational thought.......that something can come from nothing? I mean who would believe something like this?

Darwin categorically stated in A World of Natural Selection that violence is a logically deducible path from atheism.

I am not making the claim that I can prove anything. LOL

The atheist says.......there is no God. Shouldnt he because he makes the fact statement have to prove it?

I believe by faith. This is scriptural.....and God said...blessed are those who believe by faith.

I want to say that I don't like the set up of the debate when we are not given another option...what if you agree with most the post...but disagree with one item? Do you support....or do you dispute? I am new here really and still trying to understand how it all works..

With that said...I can agree with many of the point you make especially not having faith in everything.

As for the origin of the universe. Scientists don't know anymore today than they knew hundreds of years ago...concerning the first cause and the questions that go with it...why we are here, how did we get here.....etc. I do not claim to know either exactly how it all happened. God timetable might not be what we think in terms of seven days...but see to me it does not matter. I am not living on the edge of my seat wondering how it all went down. Scientists job is to look into the whys and the hows? It pays their bills. They enjoy their job like Tiger Woods enjoyed playing golf and making billions.

I am well aware that there have been many creation accounts. But which one...has been the most popular and why? Why is it that the Bible today is still the best selling book of all time? The creation story is part of that? ARe you saying that all the people who believe the creation story are delusional?

I believe that God is eternal...He always WAS. I believe He created earth and everything in it...as the scriptures tell me. I too have read a lot about the Big Bang. Now I am certainly not a scientist...and I took physics and biology in college...(long time ago in 1974-8) so I know a bit....but the BB to me is the most far fetched idea of all the ideas of how things science has offered us as a reason. It makes no logical sense. Neither does evolution, that we came from chimps...who today are not evolving and look like chimps. Even Darwin said that evolution was just one long argument. I do not believe that life was just the result of a process, undirected process and that NOTHING more than natural forces was sufficient to produce all the species on earth. You talk about a leap of faith....wow that one is a giant leap of faith. The peacocks tail....the egg, the eye......complicated things....just poof are here and in perfect order. Can't believe it.

This is in stark contrast to divine creation and for some that is just as tough to believe I understand that. I still don't believe in BLIND natural forces ...that a BB just created perfect order in the universe. That the cosmos and all its complexity was all created by change. ......yea right. That would headline Vegas.....wave the magic wand and wholla....everything appears in perfect order. And perfect order from where? Yea......out of NOTHING. All this came from NOTHING. And it all came about without cause. No reason...just came. I know I am going off a bit...but I read the other days about the eye. I am fascinated by how it works. Am having visions problems...hope its not macular...anyway. This from Michael Behe who is a biochemist. " One cannot explain the origin of vision without first accounting for the orgin of the enormously complex system of molecular mechanisms that make it work." He said a lot more...but the point is this....the eye...just evolving working around all these complexed systems...no, don't believe it.

Sure there is evidence for evolution but so what there is evidence for other disgarded theories as well. As for the BB.......for me it would make a great Speilberg movie and thats it.

Have to go somewhere for a bit......will address the rest of your post a bit later.....Thanks

Jesus is the Truth, no other way to put it. It is not illogical. You said something that I said......If Jesus is the truth, then He always told the truth. Do you want me to mention everything He ever said? Everything He said, did was the truth. Of course you can and would probably deny anything I would throw at you...so would it matter? I mean I could go on and on and on...about the facts my feelings on this....but this is about atheism....you want to debate Christ....then start something.

I am a Christian...I believe I obey......thats it. I obey what I believe..........I believe what i obey...however you want to see it.

Why am I susceptable? God has my back. I accept the morals He determined were right for me. Christians all share the same moral system that comes from the scriptures. They might not put it into practice...but they should. I believe this is the truth.

For someone who rejects God...WHO MAKES UP THE RULES, MORALS THEY LIVE BY? Its a crap shoot...everything goes, morality is arbitrary. There is no right or wrong, only what they see.

I disagree...You said.....when it comes to placing trust there is no higher authority than the person who places it. That is because you take the role of god in your life. I don't. The highest authority in my life is God, Christ, the Holy Spirit. I am just a sinner saved by grace.

You said, "You are atheist in regards to Zeus are you not? When you understand why you dismiss Zeus, you will understand why I dismiss the other deities."

But my answer is no. So where does that leave you? I believe that Christ is the Truth, the only truth. But I can't prove it and don't try. Zeus..might just have existed...in the larger scheme of things...that does not mean that my God is not the first cause. People have been worshipping things they see as gods since the beginning of time. I do not dismiss Zeus.

"You are right, I am. But I understand it as a philosophical position and not necessarily a theological one. Chew on that :)"

Well think of it however you wish...you either accept Christ as the truth or you dont. You either believe or you dont. You are so into terms...you lose the entire thought on this. You seem to be going around in circles.......and thats what people do who try to live without god...

Of course I ask God things through prayer. I talk to Him like I talk to anyone else. I get mad at Him...He is my heavenly Father. I don't like when He spanks me. I have had a lot of health issues the past few years....I don't get it. But the scriptures say suffering develops perserverance. It certainly brings me close to HIm. I have seen so many miracles in my life...

About maturing....of course I am more content. I am 55 years old. I am still curious but certainly not like I was when I was 25. I have been a Christian for so many years that....I understand the important stuff. You see my life on earth is only temporary....when I die...my life will start. So I am content.

As for the schools and what is taught. I believe kids should be seekers of knowledge, that nothing should be kept from their journey. Of course it should be age appropriate...but nevertheless they should know about all world religions...the truth about them. But atheism should be included.

Who determines what gets included in the curriculum of public schools?

For the most part the state school boards also local school boards who are controlled by the NEA. They are the largest union in the country and they swing left. The also are in bed with the Democratic pParty. States that accept national money or federal funds which most do are obligated to Washington.

Would be most happy to debate our differences.

Not true.

Everyone has faith, even if its in themselves. Faith for me is security. The love I have for Christ...the faith in the things promised........gives me hope and love and security.

It also gives me strength to face lifes challenges. Can you imagine if you didn't even have faith in your family? Or if you did not have friends that you had faith in? To not have confidence in anything.....well it would be a sad existence.

Are you saying that you have no faith, that it isn't important?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

The atheist that does not want to make the factual statement there is no god..........does not want anyone to come back like I have and call them on it...because they know their beliefs can not be proven. No way can someone prove there is NO GOD. So they sorta like to sit the fence in a way by not taking a factual stance they can't prove.

Not at all. There are various shades of gray...on the definition. I gave you the links to prove it. IMO however an atheist is someone who says.....there is no god. The atheist that says...they dont know....is more aligned with an agnostic.

There are differences in that religion as there are in other religions. Christians differ on baptism...calvanism....the sacraments....even who Christ is. Atheists differ as well....it is a religion.

I provided links that showed....as you pointed out....atheists...can say....THERE IS NO GOD. I don't think it makes sense for one to say...I am not sure.....that would make them an agnostic.

Well its blind to believe that we came from nothing. That in itself takes faith.

So what atheists are perfect?

Atheism is a person who states that there is no god. Therefore they do not belief because none exists. This is a statement said as a fact.

They assert that Gods existence is rationally improvable and is therefore at best a meaningless proposition. But its not...it is a rational proposition.

There is no way to prove this the statement.....THERE IS NO GOD......to be able to say it...they would need to prove it 100%...which would take all the knowledge the world has....since the beginning, since the first cause. Atheists are finite human beings....they have limited knowledge just like the rest of us. They have faith....even if it is in themselves.

Have you ever heard of Isaac Asimov? He signed the Humanist Manifesto ll. He said, "Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."

And he is right, science can not disprove that there might be an intelligant designer. The idea repulses people like Asimov....that is why science does not even want to look into this....they do not want to admit to some moral entity, that would control their actions.

To say..........there is no God.....is unproveable. It is impossible to be an atheist.

Well I agree with most of what your post says. Beliefs make up our worldview and our worldview is how we see the truth. The truth for me is Christ Jesus, so whatever He commands I believe. Those that reject God live by another set of rules or laws. They make themselves the god of the universe they believe in.

I appreciate that you don't hate or treat people of faith as inferior people. We have our kooks just like any other faith, but for the most part those whose lives reject Christ, treat and honor people as they want to be treated. I work with many atheists, especially at Right to Life events...they are wonderful people.

What you said about its ironic that so many atheists talk about God so much, when they say no god exists. It is funny in a way...so true.

You are willing to admit to god on paper, an object an idea not reality....you deny that he exists as a living entity. I believe in that supreme God of the universe who is the first cause, the creator of everything. I believe by faith in the things I have experiences and seen in my life. Can I prove it? No. But can the atheist deny the possibility that just might exist? NO He too has faith in his experiences and what he has seen. So the term atheist is false to describe someone who has no belief in a god. They would have to have all the knowledge in the world and beyond. This is impossible. I think you are agnostic.

I belief children need all the facts, as much as we can provide. But they should know more than that...they need to know theories as well. I believe in questioning. I have a lot of things I don't understand things I question...things I would love to ask God. I am constantly learning new things in the Word. And as I get older, more mature...I am more content to live with the things that will never be answered on earth. I simply have faith that what I believe is true...and I am not alone. Kids should not be kept from the truth however...and this truth would be the POSSIBILITY of things unseen. This should be taught at school along with all the rest of the theories. And until the first cause can be proven.....why we are here, how did we get here......everything should be examined, especially the idea of an intelligent designer. I totally agree with you that teachers should be honest, they should not campaign for their beleifs but put all on the table. It is not right that our public schools eliminate God as an intelligent creator as one possiblity.

I think yours is a fair and good post.

The true definition of the word atheism,,,,

They are people who deny who state...factually that THERE IS NO GOD. They do not say, I don't think there is a God.....that would make them agnostics.

They however can't make a statement like this because in order to do it, they would have to possess ALL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE UNIVERSE. This is impossible to do. No one can make a statement of fact like they do.

It is a religion, a faith religion. They have a worldview and it shapes everything they believe. Our government even classified atheism as a religion. They can meet as a community whether on a computer or in another gathering place, to address issues. They have organizations where they share their faith.

I disagree. We are born with human emotion. Some people cry, laugh and don't do anything in times of happiness and sadness.

I happen to be one who cried to show emotion. I was watching the Casey Anthony trial the other day and when I saw the grandmother testifying about her little murdered grandbabys skull they found...I broke down.

I watched a birth of a baby yesterday and cried over that. Birth is such a miracle.

Crying can be a form of prayer...of letting out all sorts of emotions. To cry at a funeral for a believer does not mean you are afraid of dying, or that we know we won't see them again. It means this phase of life on earth is over...that they have passed, that we temporarily will be without them. I miss my mom and dad.....I cry when I think of the funny things we used to do....memories bring up such happy feelings that I show it by smiling and crying sometimes. I am bless to be able to cry. I feel sorry for the people who feel it is a weakness...and they hold things in to make a point to others and themselves.

I know my life starts when I die...that does not mean I want my loved ones to leave right now. My dad died two years ago. He was a believer. A week before he died he called me in and said that he could not understand why he was not getting better. (He had prostrate cancer) He was always an optimist...always saw the glass full...always. With my sisters there...we told him that it was the cancer...he then realized that he was close to death. He cried. He said and I will never forget....that he couldnt wait to be with our mother and little brother, but that he loved each one of us and didn't want to leave us either.

I thank God that I have tears to show emotion. Can you imagine a world so cold without them?

I beleive that there is an afterlife for beleivers...so in that case it saddens me when I know that those I love who reject Christ...I will never see again. I will never know however...because in Heaven we are told there are no tears...so saddness does not exist. You can laugh make pot shots at beleivers all you want...does not faze me a bit. I feel sorry for people who can't understand that the possiblity just might exist...that if they are wrong...they will pay.

I can't wait to be with Christ....that does not mean I want to die now...and not experience what life has for me....